Memento Mori - NPCC vs Ramsay

[jerichoholic]

This will be coming soon to Kickstarter from Roman Kotiv featuring 2 decks. Unfortunately Chris Ramsay has taken exception to this because he will be releasing a deck with the same name. Instead of being a professional person and discussing the situation with Roman he has posted on Facebook and Twitter and who knows where else that he is being ripped off. He has blocked Roman, myself, and probably others because we suggested he discuss it with Roman. This is completely the wrong way of doing things.



Btw this is Chris' deck of which the only similarity is the name. Should also point out that Roman tells me this deck has been in the works for 3 years. So who exactly is ripping off who?

[farmisen]

Here is the pre-campaign link for those interested in a preview: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/89 ... n=89e15424

[billdragon]

a la. another issue
so pretty. nice deck roman. I really liked the previous bold line art deck.

that's kind of a strange thing. memento mori is a really long name and I havn't seen it in ks before.
I guess its because the industry is getting tough this year and there;s been a lot of insecurities. life life

hopfully everything will work out (may be chat it out in pm?) and this skull deck can come out. I would pledge one.

[IAmTheChin]

This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen. Skulls have been a saturated topic in this market for years. I severely doubt anyone is copying anyone and it doesn't even hold up to logic.

Do I think Roman started working on this first? Absolutely. Do I think that matters? Absolutely not. If Ramsay thinks Roman is copying the name for publicity sake, it's flawed. It's better business for him to not compete on search terms. Roman should change the name for the sake of even selling anything post Kickstarter. Competing on SEO terms with a company with a larger budget and a higher ranked website is suicide.

Roman, do your art. Do it well. Life is unfair and sometimes you'll need to adapt. This is one of those times. Don't let stubbornness affect the longevity of your passion projects.

[decibelhz]

There are so many things that are out there such as movies, books, art, video games, clothing that use Memento Mori as it's title that no one person can really claim that exclusively. It's not the most original title after all. Chris Ramsey can call his deck that if he but it's not his place to tell someone that they can't use it because he is. He doesn't own that term. The art is completely different between the two anyways. People are going to buy the deck for the art and design. Not for what the damn deck is called.

[NoirArts]

Oh my God… Just woke up and found this discussion is growing (and another one here https://www.facebook.com/groups/vjose32" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)…
Let me explain how I see this. We've never seen Chris's version of Memento Mori before. There was only one known Memento deck, created by Legends. I’m (Roman Kotiv) playing cards collector too, so I check what is available on the market from time to time and I never heard about Chris Ramsay’s deck untill yesterday (no info about his deck on Unitedcardists too).

Here is a little history about how our deck was born:

Our artist made very nice (IMHO) ace of spades and tuckbox (August 2013). We’ve found this on Behance and contacted him to make full deck of cards (September 2014)… After some time spent on discussion, he started working on complete deck. After some part of finished illustrations, name of the deck was changed to “Memento Mori” because it fits project's idea. In 2015 we got almost finished deck and made a draft at (20.08.15, 01:06 am. We have letter from KS with congratulations on start of new project). This draft was shared with few people (collectors, designers, etc.) and we got some feedbacks to make minor changes in design. It was made and waiting as draft from January 2016. We don’t want to launch and advertise any new projects until we fulfill current. Geistreiz and Branle Royal were fulfilled last week so we moved on with Memento Mori promotion.

Yesterday Chris Ramsay appeared with his deck of cards claiming ours as a rip off. After I tried to explain him he blocked me on FB and deleted his comments (mine as well). He don’t want to start any kind of discussion or conversation and just claiming about rip off on twitter and FB (maybe somewhere else, I don’t know).

As for me “Memento Mori” phrase is not something special or unique and no one have copyright on it even if someone else will produce deck with same name.


We would like to advise cardists community:

What do you think about this situation with the name (Billdragon, I remember about your situation too and as I remember your decision to move on with chosen name which was not a trademark). Taking all said above - do you think that we need to change the name of our deck or to go on with original idea (as for me I don’t see any problems when 2 different decks from different artists and publishers exist on the market). Your opinion is very important to us. Please share your thoughts regarding our project.

Best regards,

Roman

[PaulRuccio]

There are so many things that are out there such as movies, books, art, video games, clothing that use Memento Mori as it's title that no one person can really claim that exclusively. It's not the most original title after all. Chris Ramsey can call his deck that if he but it's not his place to tell someone that they can't use it because he is. He doesn't own that term. The art is completely different between the two anyways. People are going to buy the deck for the art and design. Not for what the damn deck is called.

You're wrong here. If you are the first to use in commerce for a particular product (playing cards in the situation), trademarked or not, you have rights. If "Memento Mori" is part of the design, that's one thing but when it's the name of the product, that's another.

EXAMPLE: If you search the term on the trademark database, you'll see "Memento Mori" was used for winery services so if you were to start a company in the winery services segment, you may have issues.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer so this isn't legal advice but I've discussed trademarks with a trademark lawyer before for my own advice.

[jsantafe]

Does it has anything to do with Murphy's Magic?



This image was uploaded 8 weeks ago, it looks staged but who knows.

[jerichoholic]

Yeah he's also posted a pic I saw on Twitter with stacks of bricks which could contain anything.

[Lotrek]

"Memento mori" is the name I was thinking of (a couple of years ago) for a supposedly upcoming deck, before I finally settle to "Requiem", before Lorenzo actually did "Requiem".

[jerichoholic]

Does it has anything to do with Murphy's Magic?



This image was uploaded 8 weeks ago, it looks staged but who knows.

So Who told Chris he couldn't share a picture of his own deck?

[PrincessTrouble]

Does it has anything to do with Murphy's Magic?



This image was uploaded 8 weeks ago, it looks staged but who knows.

So Who told Chris he couldn't share a picture of his own deck?

By looking at the highlighted part of the picture above, it looks like Murphy's told him he couldn't.

[hawk199]

We would like to advise cardists community:

What do you think about this situation with the name (Billdragon, I remember about your situation too and as I remember your decision to move on with chosen name which was not a trademark). Taking all said above - do you think that we need to change the name of our deck or to go on with original idea (as for me I don’t see any problems when 2 different decks from different artists and publishers exist on the market). Your opinion is very important to us. Please share your thoughts regarding our project.

Best regards,

Roman

I think name changing is needed when, its helps those who are smaller (less recognize) than the other, in terms of search. (like Iamthechin mention)

Other then that it's fair game, unless the name is trade mark/ extremely recognized, like Bicycle Rider (extreme case)



Damn Chris deck is pretty, but kinda of suck about his maturity??

[ecNate]

All this drama is so middle school. It's unfortunate they have the same name and somebody should consider changing the name to help themselves out to avoid confusion, but it's hardly copying an original idea and should be under no obligation to do so. I get why Chris is especially since he has a (real?) tattoo of the phrase and obviously attached to it, but it's not 'copying'. The Ramsay deck is totally unappealing to me as well, but the NPCC one looks interesting to me, even as I'm not a big skull/skeleton person.

Anyhow, with all the drama and photo bombs of the Ramsay deck I got confused on what deck is which. So, to help others out I'll repeat the preview link that was already shared (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/89 ... n=89e15424) and also link to some images of the deck we SHOULD be talking about more.


NPCC Memento Mori

[farmisen]

What do you think about this situation with the name (Billdragon, I remember about your situation too and as I remember your decision to move on with chosen name which was not a trademark). Taking all said above - do you think that we need to change the name of our deck or to go on with original idea (as for me I don’t see any problems when 2 different decks from different artists and publishers exist on the market). Your opinion is very important to us. Please share your thoughts regarding our project.

AFAIC, both Memento Mori and Vanitas names are extremely fitting to the deck style and - marketing aside (which I am not the best person to ask about) - I'd keep them the way they are. Do you have a release date for the campaign yet?

[NoirArts]

Hello guys
After a few days of rethinking all this situation, and discussing it with artwork creator, we've come up with idea to do minor changes to our project. This will not only help in marketing and distinguishing ours and Chris's decks, but also better fits our concept. Plus, we don't want people to associate our products with his, especially after all that drama he showed, he-he

Completely changing the name was not an option... so.. we won't be releasing Memento Mori deck..

..Please welcome: "Memento Mori Collection" project (MMC)!

MMC, currently, include 2 standalone decks, united by one idea: Vanitas and Carpe Diem. Each deck has its own unique cards, deck seals, and color scheme. Depending on how funding goes - we will add exra features, again, exclusive for each deck.

[Justin O.]

TLDR - good looking cards though. What does Memento Mori stand for?

[Lotrek]

TLDR - good looking cards though. What does Memento Mori stand for?

Memento Mori: Remember, you'll die.

[chach]

TLDR - good looking cards though. What does Memento Mori stand for?

Loosely, it's Latin for remember you must die.

[Stockholm17]

LoL

more or less the same thing happened to me with Gemini:
This kid from Lithuania showed his Gemini deck for cardistry on Instagram and prepared the campaign on indiegogo.
A few days before I showed the Gemini queen of spades saying that I was working on it.

2 complete different styles and artworks, light years far from each other. The name was identical. I was open to change it if his deck gets funded. And it did not happen.


About Chris and Roman dispute, here is my opinion:
Both are very nice decks, but Chris' deck should have another name. It does not fit at all with the theme, the design and the artworks.

[NoirArts]

We've run into dilemma, and need your advice!
To make this deck really pop, we are considering to use "metallic" card stock (black - CD, and brown - Vanitas) for tucks with silver (for Carpe Diem) and gold (for Vanitas) inks. Plus embossing and hot foils on key design elements. Plus interior printing (foils?? - not yet decided).

HOWEVER, this will seriously increase deck price.

So, we see 2 options here:
1. Increase deck price (+$1)
2. Make this upgrades as high stretch goal

What is your thoughts?

[jerichoholic]

Never been a big fan of interior stuff, would rather see more effort put into the cards and tuck where you can actually enjoy it, instead of hidden inside of a tuck.

Also I say have it as a stretch goal to keep the price down.

[Räpylätassu]

I would rather pay more to have all the goodies. Nice tucks without interior printing are always a let down for me.

That's just my opinion though.

[joeblow]

Interior printing is interesting. Interior foil is a pain, it just flakes off onto the cards. Putting the money on tuck and stock seems much more worthwhile. I don't mind if they cost a bit more to start.

[RichK]

Looking at the tuck interiors you have amazing art which will be pretty much unviewable unless you sell unfolded tucks. Foliling the inside would be wasteful in my opinion.

[rousselle]

Regarding art in the interior of the tuck: while I used to feel the same as others above, that printing inside the tuck is wasted effort, I've since completely changed my thoughts on this. The experience of opening up Chris Ovdyenko's Oracle deck, for example, is HUGELY impacted by the surprisingly awesome foil-work inside the tuck. The interiors of some of Jackson Robinson's decks, or Omnia/Delerium decks, or the prismatic foil inside the 52+Jokers deck make the experience of simply opening the tuck exquisite. Attention to the interior, even if it's simply colored paper as opposed the the boring ol' white, makes the tuck feel less like a storage container for some cards and more like a home for your works of art.

Just my two cents.

That said, the stretch goal versus building into the price right upfront conundrum is an age-old dilemma. I think there's a lot to be said for building it into the price upfront. If you don't hit your funding goal, you can always try to re-release later with fewer bells and whistles. But most people who want the bells and whistles will either not pledge at all or refrain from pledging until it looks certain that the stretch goals will be hit.

[NoirArts]

Thanks everyone for advices. Indeed, very tough decision that we had to make.

Evaluating all pros and cons, we are going to do "feature-max" decks. $1 is comparably not major price raise, considering what we offer. By going with such a unique metallic paper, we want this deck to be premium. To be desired for collectors. Small details are crucial in many situations, and lots of people make final decision based on details.

By the way, we are going to offer unfolded tucks as add on - for those, who would like to enjoy interior artwork

and the last, but not least - PROJECT IS GOING LIVE WEDNESDAY 20TH

[NoirArts]

Launch tomorrow (20 April 2016) on Kickstarter.

Los Angeles 11am (PST)
NY 2pm (EDT)
London 7pm (GMT+1)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/89 ... n=89e15424" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We'll be happy to see you as our backer

[Räpylätassu]

Backed for one Vanitas!

[Justin O.]

No stretch goals for a quality printer?