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Cbkimble wrote:

Stockholm17 wrote:I am lost now... "you" not you in person, in general, plural - damn english. I didnt quote or mention you at all.
Well, sorry if I give gifts to the backers proportionally to their pledge.

I didnt even release the rest of the gifts, because there are 2 weeks to go.

First, you did mention victor by name.

Second, thank you for these beautiful cards and the great way you reward your backers.

yes, Victor is trolling (as always) not jerichoholic.

I gave gifts during heretic and requiem and everybody was fine with that.
I gave 2 requiem decks to those with the brickXI, and everybody was ok with that.
I gave miniprints, signed certificates, signed cards, signed decks, and stickers.

What the Funk?

I will release more gifts, if somebody is not happy with one or more things in their package, amen.
cheers

Stockholm17 wrote:
I will release more gifts, if somebody is not happy with one or more FREE things in their package, amen.
cheers

Missed a word there

yes, Victor is trolling (as always) not jerichoholic.

Lorenzo.. Victor=Vjose32=Jerichoholic=Veeve= fill in alias cause I forget

It all boils down to one thing: Lorenzo did things differently by giving things away instead of making every single stretch goal another toll booth where you pay to play.

If he wants to give things away, why would anyone complain unless they want what he's giving for free for a price? They wouldn't. I won't repeat my analogy again. You can't please everybody.

Cue Frank Sinatra "I did it my way" in the background...

badpete69 wrote:yes, Victor is trolling (as always) not jerichoholic.

Lorenzo.. Victor=Vjose32=Jerichoholic=Veeve= fill in alias cause I forget

LOL why the protugese flag under his avatar? ahahah

Well I think offering those free gifts as add-ons (while still being a free gift to different tiers) would quell the rebellion. What they really want is a fair chance in owning everything. But I get Lorenzo's point in the extra trouble and logistics in offering everything as an add-on.

Yashi wrote:Well I think offering those free gifts as add-ons (while still being a free gift to different tiers) would quell the rebellion. What they really want is a fair chance in owning everything. But I get Lorenzo's point in the extra trouble and logistics in offering everything as an add-on.

What Yashi said.

rousselle wrote:

Yashi wrote:Well I think offering those free gifts as add-ons (while still being a free gift to different tiers) would quell the rebellion. What they really want is a fair chance in owning everything. But I get Lorenzo's point in the extra trouble and logistics in offering everything as an add-on.

What Yashi said.

Yep, that would stop any complaints. If you're printing a small batch of minis anyway, I don't see how they would add much trouble. Sure, there's always the tiny risk of someone adding on a truckload or whatever, but far from everyone collects mini decks.

Not that I have a horse in this race either way though

Yes! It's perfectly fine if he wants to gift big spenders freebies. They absolutely deserve it. But actually requiring everyone else to spend heaps more on stuff they don't want just to get the one thing they do is not right.

Just look at the numbers:

Out of currently 738 backers:

106 backers in the one deck
368 in two deck tiers
18 in three deck tiers
95 in four deck tiers
76 in six deck tiers
55 in the brick tiers

That's a painfully obvious indicator of what the majority of backers go for. Over 50% of them are in lower levels. As it is, even the brick pledgers don't qualify for the crown deck. They'd have to at least double down to get one for free. That amount of product shouldn't be a requirement. A lot of us are collectors, not resellers and the numbers don't lie.

So either you have to be fast with the 30 spots or rich to have a chance of scoring a crown deck. Because you can paint it however you wish, the crown is not a gift in its current state. It's an incentive to buy more.

Why can't it be like Jody's Black Ink? Or Gambler's Warehouse Gilded decks? Set a cap. This super duper mega rare stuff is getting gross.

Eoghann wrote: But actually requiring everyone else to spend heaps more on stuff they don't want just to get the one thing they do is not right.

Dan... That is a flawed statement. Did Lorenzo put a gun to your head. Is he making it mandatory?? You make no sense. Do you whine at theory 11 or CARC or Ellusionist when they offer 1 black deck if you buy a brick or w/e the deal is. Just see it as that deck is not available for you period. No one is required to do anything. I just don't get it. It just feels like the entitlement sense that everyone thinks they deserve everything someone else is getting

By the way I love you man but just disagree with you here

I don't have any problem with this idea. I tried it myself.

It basically comes down to one major concept. The more decks sold the cheaper it is to produce them, a lot cheaper. But you can only account so much in the difference between bricks and single deck pledge level. If you sell an extra 2000 decks and the price drops up to 40% you can have the freedom to be more generous.

Look at it this way. This deck has sold 2000 decks already. That's written in black and white. The goal comfortably funded 1000 to be printed and this is another 1000. The printing cost nearly halves between 1000 decks and 2000 decks.

This means a greater cut to the creator, (a good thing, this means more decks later) and that should be the end of it, just walk away and take the money.

To instead offer up extra freebies just because they can afford it is an awesome way to reward people IMHO. And its simple maths. At the lower levels there is probably not enough profit to give away anything, even when printing costs drop. But at higher levels you can.

Yes I'm disappointed I wont be getting the super limited deck either. That's a given. Can't afford that size spend or justify it just to get a freebie. But as an artist myself working on my own projects, these take time and if an artist works for free, they go hungry and then no-one gets more decks.... These are being done by hand, across how many countless hours of work. If you were paying the actual wages cost alone it takes to make them, its probably still a bargain.

Maybe the solution is to offer up the mini decks as an add on as well as a free reward at certain levels, but to make it viable you would end up paying through the nose for it and probably be better off with the reward way instead.

As for the hand made decks, its just not a viable idea to think these could be a standard add on. God knows how long these take and even if everyone was happy to pay all that money to cover the costs, and they sold 1000, we would all be waiting until 2035 to get the decks done.

I think everyone needs to just take a breather and look at it this way. It could be 52 paintings, hanging on a wall. And that's all there is. All to auction and see what you can afford. Playing cards allow everyday joes to get that art in their hands, pockets or on the wall. The basic decks do this. This kind of art as a bonus is extra. Its out of my reach too. But most things are lol

I'm out of hot air.

If it changed anything, great. If not, well...whatever. I just don't think it's right to tailor art and projects solely for a small group of the rich and powerful.

badpete69 wrote:It just feels like the entitlement sense that everyone thinks they deserve everything someone else is getting

It's not about entitlement, it's about availability. Had it been more of a fluff item (ie not a deck), I doubt people would have bothered going against it at all. But when it is a deck, the thing we all collect, and it's not available, then it's pretty frustrating. And people are voicing their frustration because they know Lorenzo is here, while E and T11 wouldn't give two shits if someone is steaming on a forum somewhere.

Particularly the mini deck seems to be unnecessarily limited in availability (compared to the difficult to produce gran riserva-type items) and only comes across as a means to make people pledge for more decks.

Guys

there are 3 variables that you did not count:

1. the campaign is not over (less than 2 weeks) and I didnt release the rest of the gifts
2. I tend to unveil things, and surprise the backers instead of saying everything in the beginning. You know that. It happened with the brickXI, the miniprints etc.
3. this is a split production (same faces, different backs, different tucks) and USPCC for this kind of production sets a minimum of 2500 units per deck. And we know USPCC: I order 5000, they give me 5500, and I have to pay the extra 500 full price.


Now, can we postpone all the complaining, the theories, and the math to the 19th of mars?

I could not imagine that the mini-deck was a big issue.
Too many add-ons create a mess in the way I manage the backers, the numbers and the pledges. I tried backer-kit test environment for 3 days because I wanted to try the add-on "feature" for the campaign. Here is the reply of the support guy:

"I spent some more time looking over your project and looking over the "Prices and Shipping Costs” and unfortunately you won’t be able to easily match that shipping fee structure in BackerKit at this time."

I have my way to run this campaign, these are gifts and I am not forcing anyone to add 2 decks. These gifts are proportionally given to the size of the pledge. That was the idea and it looks it worked for Requiem and Heretic. Not for No.17, apparently.

The mistake I made is that I released one gift only, keeping the others hidden.
One thing I ask you, let´s wait for the end of this campaign
thanx for your thoughts and the feedback
cheers

PS: "buy one brick and you get a deck for free"... what´s the problem with that? O_O

Stockholm17 wrote:Now, can we postpone all the complaining, the theories, and the math to the 19th of mars?

Yeah, that sounds fair

MagikFingerz wrote:

Stockholm17 wrote:Now, can we postpone all the complaining, the theories, and the math to the 19th of mars?

Yeah, that sounds fair

Sounds like a plan.

Stockholm17 wrote: PS: "buy one brick and you get a deck for free"... what´s the problem with that? O_O

Deforestation?

Aussie888 wrote:

Stockholm17 wrote: PS: "buy one brick and you get a deck for free"... what´s the problem with that? O_O

Deforestation?

LMAO! Maybe that's an Aussie joke only. But made my night!

Cbkimble wrote:If you dont like the way they do their projects, do like i did on Arcana, cancel your pledge. Don't keep crying b/c you aren't getting what you want and try blaming someone else.

what happened with that project that you were upset about?

Stockholm17 wrote: Now, can we postpone all the complaining, the theories, and the math to the 19th of mars?

Sure! Or we can all simply do not complain (so much) about free gifts... especially for a guy who always runs such great campaigns.

I just imagine Bill Gates reading e-mails from around the world, “Hey, Billy, I don’t like the colour of that icon in Windows, change it, don’t be a jerk!”

And the mo-o-o-o-o-st awful evil of this month is… Lorenzo – he is giving free mini-decks on Kickstarter… but not to all.

Stockholm17 wrote:...Now, can we postpone all the complaining, the theories, and the math to the 19th of mars?..

Do what you want, but I WANT a free Ferrari instead of the mini deck, and this is the only way for you to save your good karma … You can send the substituted mini deck to Eoghann.

Oh!!! And don’t forget – you will have to find new thousands of dollars to print a new run of playing cards for those who will find out about your No. 17 decks in several years. Can be those people blamed because they were born later? Why they should pay those crazy prices on eBay? The universal justice should be really universal.

you're assuming I'm asking for a handout. Not once did I ask for free stuff. It's for the opportunity to PURCHASE something without stuffing my house with extra stuff I don't want. With a segue into why things are so super duper ultra rare limited.

Woosh.

SuicideKing wrote:

Stockholm17 wrote: Now, can we postpone all the complaining, the theories, and the math to the 19th of mars?

Sure! Or we can all simply do not complain (so much) about free gifts... especially for a guy who always runs such great campaigns.

The free gifts aren't the problem, it's the available of those items to other backers that seems to be the issue. But I guess we'll wait and see what happens.

I have to support Eoghann in this. Whatever the intention it does look like yet another exclusive freebie for those who can already afford to buy big. When you do not have that kind of money it gets frustrating. Something random would be more fair, and would encourage people to make a pledge, any pledge, to have a chance at the random gifts.

**EDIT

Stockholm17 wrote: PS: "buy one brick and you get a deck for free"... what´s the problem with that? O_O

There is no problem with a free deck. That is not at all the issue. It's only that the deck is exclusive and not available any other way - making it elite.

I gotta say, there's two pretty stellar reasons for someone to make a pledge, any pledge. No. 17 Branded and Unbranded. Good thing the campaign is about those. Pretty cool news, now being fulfilled by GW.

jerichoholic wrote:

SuicideKing wrote:

Stockholm17 wrote: Now, can we postpone all the complaining, the theories, and the math to the 19th of mars?

Sure! Or we can all simply do not complain (so much) about free gifts... especially for a guy who always runs such great campaigns.

The free gifts aren't the problem, it's the available of those items to other backers that seems to be the issue. But I guess we'll wait and see what happens.

Well, I have no problem at all with gifts, even if they are exclusive and not available to purchase. Sometime I get the gift, sometime I don't... and good for those who get them. That's it.

And it's completely understandable that the gifts more valuable, or more exclusive (think at ICONS Imperial Reverse Edition), go to those who pledge/buy more.
Of course there's some kind of marketing with that. No problem with that. And I think that Lorenzo really wants to say thanks to the backers (for some others companies, it is just about marketing).

Anyway, Lorenzo can run the campaign like he wants. It's always true, but in his case, he completely won that right, he has proven in the past that he knows how to run campaigns. We can of course express our opinion about that, but once it is done, that Lorenzo read it, understand the point and reply to it, I think that we need to stop.

Crown edition gone in under a minute. Hammering F5 and never had a chance!

Well, that was fast. The Crown tuck box pledge tier was gone between me clicking "Manage Pledge" and the page loading...

20 min last Gran Riserva... 1 min this time for the Crown!

I don't know why I bothered to wake up from a nap. Wasn't sure if I was going to buy, but it didn't matter the decision was made for me by the lightning fast sale. The problem was trying to see where the pledge to select was at and that's because it was gone faster than you can say "Crown".