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Sviatoslav Pashchuk wrote:We’re funded! Thanks you so much for the support and we hope to achieve the next goals soon!

That image would make a stunning tuckbox front... You should consider that, and you should also consider printing this deck with USPCC.

I'd really like to pledge for this deck. I've bought several NPCC-printed decks for the artwork but they just handle like crap. It ruins the experience for me. If I were just a tuck box collector and never took the cards out, I would be fine with NPCC. But I care about the finish/handling quality of the cards. And all my NPCC decks are clumpy. So sadly, I'll have to pass this deck.

Yep after golden age, which was a beautiful deck, I promised myself I would never back NPCC again no matter how much I like the artwork, the quality always manages to be disappointingly bad and ruins the whole deck for me.

JuFiN wrote:Yep after golden age, which was a beautiful deck, I promised myself I would never back NPCC again no matter how much I like the artwork, the quality always manages to be disappointingly bad and ruins the whole deck for me.

^^^^ Exactly this. I got fooled into buying the Golden Age decks with the promise of "NPCC's handling has gotten so much better". BS. I saw no improvement with Golden Age from previous NPCC decks. They handle like crap and take so much away from the deck. It is such a shame because most of the NPCC produced decks have fantastic artwork. I really wish the artists would go to a better printer.

Ok, it's not professional but I'm tired to reading this.
Could you explain in exact numbers which handling is "not crap" and which is "crap" and why?
Let's see exact comparison in numbers and explanations, not just that "crap" speech.

Thanx

NoirArts wrote:Ok, it's not professional but I'm tired to reading this.
Could you explain in exact numbers which handling is "not crap" and which is "crap" and why?
Let's see exact comparison in numbers and explanations, not just that "crap" speech.

Thanx

I've said it what feels like a million times...

NPCC decks don't handle as well as USPCC, EPCC, or Cartamundi, but they're much better than people are willing to give them credit for. The only truly bad-handling decks I have are the latest ones from Nicolai Aaroe. For whatever reason they turned out pretty bad (at least the one's I received).

NoirArts wrote:Ok, it's not professional but I'm tired to reading this.
Could you explain in exact numbers which handling is "not crap" and which is "crap" and why?
Let's see exact comparison in numbers and explanations, not just that "crap" speech.

Thanx

Not sure what you mean by numbers, but I'm sure you have already handled some USPCC and EPCC (Taiwan) decks. So you know for sure your decks are way inferior than the ones mentioned. Here some numbers (scale 0 - 5):

Handling (stock + finish):
NPCC decks are almost impossible to fan evenly, while it is true that you can spring and drible them, ribbon spreads or fans are a big challange, not to say impossible. This is the type of behaviour I expect from dollar store decks, not for decks that are priced at $10+.
Score: 1

Registration:
registration is usually very good,
Score: 4

Printing quality:
printing quality is on the high end also, but most of my decks seem to have the color somehow muted, they don't pop, like the finish somehow is shadowing the colors.
Score: 3

Cutting:
Very bad, you can see the beveled edge and that almost prevents faros, and if you force the faro you risk damage the cards (splitting them).
Score: 1

Durability:
Can't assess this accurately, as due to the poor handling I found myself running away from this decks when I want to play just for fun. But one of the NPCC decks I must use is Indictus, and must say that deck showed much wear to quicly.. Because of the poor cutting when you try to shuffle the cards the start to chip out pretty quicly, also the cards after a few time start to clump even more.
Score: 2 (since can't assess accurately)

Price:

Score: 0

Total Score: 11

USPCC Score: 5 + 3 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 28

EPCC Score: 3 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 3 + 4 = 24

So the only number that I can reason from this is that you should charge $3-$5 for your deck and not the stupid $10-$15.

And yes, the best technical term I found to describe NPCC decks is crap (sorry about that, but if you were more interest in really improve your decks' handling instead of making profit, I'm sure that by now you would be able to offer something better)...

NoirArts wrote:Ok, it's not professional but I'm tired to reading this.
Could you explain in exact numbers which handling is "not crap" and which is "crap" and why?
Let's see exact comparison in numbers and explanations, not just that "crap" speech.

Thanx

Seriously?!?! Just pick up a deck of Standard Bicycles and try to fan them, shuffle them, just hold them in your hands. It doesn't take much to notice the difference. Stop trying to say that the quality of your cards is close. They're not. It may be unprofessional for me to say they handle like "crap", but it is also unprofessional to compare the quality of your decks to the top manufacturer in the world and say they're almost the same.

NoirArts wrote:Ok, it's not professional but I'm tired to reading this.
Could you explain in exact numbers which handling is "not crap" and which is "crap" and why?
Let's see exact comparison in numbers and explanations, not just that "crap" speech.

Thanx

Hi, there!

First, let me start by saying I'm glad you're engaging. It's true that NPCC's reputation as a manufacturer is taking a bit of a beating here, and I think that if you're able to address the concerns that are being brought up, you'll be well positioned to become a dominant player in this industry (no pun intended. This time.)

I have always enjoyed my dealings with Roman (I don't know if this is Roman or one of his/your associates posting the note on behalf of NoirArts), and I think that attitude and trustworthiness make a huge difference. All things being equal, I'd rather do business with a stand-up guy like Roman than an indifferent, ambivalent corporate behemouth like USPCC. But, all things are not equal...

NPCC has arguably top notch printing/registration. As has been mentioned above, the colors don't always pop quite as much as it seems they should, but even so, the colors are not *that* dull, they hold fast, the registration is leaps and bounds beyond USPCC, and what is more...

NPCC is doing a great job of translating some genuinely great art. I mean, really, you have some fantastic artists and designers who have a brilliant eye when it comes to making a playing card look its best, and making a deck coherent and playable. So, top marks there, as well.

I'll also note that the tuckboxes on my favorite NPCC decks are also top notch. The embossing and foiling on the Carnaval de Muertos tuck, for example, really sings.

The two specific issues though that make not-all-things-equal are the cuts and the feel of the finish/coating.

I'll defer to others on the cut interfering with faro shuffles, and note that the cut doesn't seem to be as bad on the deck of Carnaval de Muertos that I have with me at the moment. I seem to recall the indentation around the edges of the cut being more noticeable on some other decks, but I don't have them handy right this second. So, again, I'll leave this for others to expand upon.

What is much more of an issue for me, and that I have not noticed any improvement upon with later decks in my possession, is the finish.

The linen-esque style texture seems fine to me, but something about the coating of the cards makes them decidedly not slippery; very clumpy and, although I wouldn't say they are tacky/sticky, there is something about them that makes them... steadfast? They are the opposite of slippery, even though they are not sticky, but I don't know what word to use to describe that sensation.

Whether out of the box or with repeated playing, the decks I have from NPCC simply don't feel right to my fingers, which is hard to quantify, and they don't fan well *at all* (which is easy to quantify.) The card stock itself is excellent; my Muertos deck is seeing regular play with my and my young kids as part of our nighttime routine, and the stock holds up well and still has a decent snap. But, because of the varnish, a normal riffle shuffle feels clumpy, and dealing the cards requires more attention than with a typical USPCC, EPCC/LPCC Taiwan, Cartamundi B9, or even a decent MPC linen-finish deck.

On that note, I'll point out that I have the exact same aversion to the MPC smooth-finish and the Cartamundi souvenir smooth-finish decks. To give two examples, the Pipmen Full World (printed by MPC on a smooth finish) and Star Wars Battles (printed by Cartamundi on a smooth finish at their facility in China) feel awful, are difficult to deal, and while SW Battles fanned okay-ish out of the box, they very quickly devolved into the same unfannable mess that Pipmen Full World is.

Note that Pipmen World, printed by LPCC using their "emerald finish", has similar art, the same color depth, and are otherwise comparable to the Pipmen Full World, but while I love the art and truly appreciate the LPCC version, the MPC smooth version was an instant almost-regret.

So, this is my extremely long-winded way of saying that Noir Arts, you have almost all of the ingredients necessary to make decks that I would buy again and again. If you were to work on one thing at this point, I suggest you address the slipperiness of the cards. I suspect your prime suspect is the varnish you use, although I suppose it's possible that changing the linen-style dimples may have an impact, as well.

If you were willing to take on two things, the second thing I'd investigate is the final cutting process.

Please keep us posted as to whether you decide to pursue these. Oh, and if you're looking for early reviewers or testers for your new processes, I'd love to volunteer.

NoirArts wrote:Ok, it's not professional but I'm tired to reading this.
Could you explain in exact numbers which handling is "not crap" and which is "crap" and why?
Let's see exact comparison in numbers and explanations, not just that "crap" speech.

Thanx

Whether you are a cardist, magician, or casual collector who likes to actually use playing cards for their intended purpose such as a friendly game of poker, you want the cards to handle well in your hands. In other words, you want them to feel consistent and smooth as you work the cards, whether it be in a fan, or a double-lift, or simply shuffling the cards for your next round of poker. There are two primary factors that influence how cards feel and handle: card stock and finish.

Card Stock: This is the physical characteristics of the actual paper, or card stock, itself. In general you want a relatively thick and stiff stock because that helps determine the overall durability of the cards. You want good elastic deformation in the cards, so if you bend the card, it will snap back to its original shape instead of remaining bent or warped. Finally, you want to manufacture the cards in a humidity controlled environment to help minimize warping of the cards. The good news is that your card stock is fine.

Finish: When we talk about handling, we're basically talking about how smoothly and easily the cards glide against each other, otherwise known as slip. There are 2 factors that determine the quality of the slip of the cards: 1) the dimpling pattern, which reduces the coefficient of friction between the cards and allows glide against each other more freely, and 2) the mix of plastics and varnish in the coating of the paper stock. These two factors in conjunction make up the "finish" of a deck. The company that has the best finish is the USPCC. Their chemical mix of plastic urethane and varnish makes their decks extremely "slippery". The USPCC also uses a pattern of dimples, or calandering, that uniformly breaks up the friction between the cards by creating a cushion of air to help facilitate an even , constant glide between the cards. If you have two perfectly smooth surfaces glide against each other, they'll still "stick" to each other due to the coefficient of friction, but the calandering breaks this up. The bad news is that your finish is, with all due respect, crap.

So let me explain why I use the term crap in basic, simple terms and specific examples. I want you to get a brand new deck of a Bicycle Rider Back, this is among the least expensive, mass produced decks the USPCC makes. You don't even have to go out and get a casino-grade custom Bee deck, the humble Rider Back is more than sufficient for our comparison. Then put a brand new NPCC deck next to the Rider Back. Put the tip of your finger on top of the NPCC cards in the center and gently swirl your finger around in a circle with just a tiny bit of pressure downwards. Now do the exact same thing with the USPCC cards. You should definitely feel a difference in the tactile feel between the two decks. With the NPCC deck, you will feel some resistance and feedback while the USPCC deck will feel much looser with almost no resistance or feedback.

Now square up both decks again and very lightly tap the side of the NPCC cards. Do the exact same thing to the USPCC cards. You will see that the NPCC deck barely shifts to the side and still remains an upright stack of cards while the USPCC deck will have shifted sideways a whole lot more and you should have an almost diagonally tilted stack of cards. Take the NPCC deck and try to do a one-handed fan, then do the same with the USPCC deck. This is not as subtle of a test and will show the most obvious differences between the two decks. Regardless of your skills in fanning a deck, the USPCC deck should feel much easier to fan and the distribution of the cards in the fan should be a lot more evenly spaced. The NPCC deck will be very clumpy and uneven. Even if you're skilled in fanning a deck, you cannot get a perfectly even fan with a brand new NPCC deck. You really have to break in the deck for a long time before you're able to achieve even a semi-decent fan.

Finally, with a group of friends, play poker for an hour with the NPCC deck, and then play another hour of poker with the USPCC deck. The handling and smoothness of both decks should be compromised to varying degrees because they've been well used for a period of time. But the Rider Back will still feel pretty decent while the NPCC deck becomes a whole lot more sticky and clumpier. When you open and use a brand new USPCC deck, the cards are a joy to handle because they're so smooth and slippery and stay that way longer even with extensive use. When you open a brand new NPCC deck, they don't feel as great to start with because they're not so smooth and slippery, and they get even clumpier and stickier much more quickly than the USPCC deck.

This is why we refer to the handling of NPCC decks as "crap". You have to tweak the chemical composition of your varnish/lacquer in the finish of the cards to improve the slip of the cards. The dimpling pattern in your cards are very close together and shallow, which reduces their efficiency in breaking up the co-efficient of friction between the decks. I would suggest modifying both the spacing and depth of the dimpling, or calandering, of the cards as a way to even out and improve the slip of the cards. Right now, the quality of handling of NPCC decks are not even close to EPCC decks, much less USPCC decks.

I realize it must be tough to hear criticism of your product and it hurts your pride. You somehow manage to attract talented designers with great art and produce their decks. It's a shame that your aesthetic results aren't matched by the same degree of technical quality. I don't refer to the handling of NPCC decks as "crap" with the intent to belittle your product, but rather as an accurate and factual indication of relative quality. The fact that you were bothered enough to make the comment you did shows me that you actually care about the quality of your decks as opposed to running your business as cheaply as you can to make the most money possible. I urge you to perform the side-by-side comparisons I mentioned above with an open mind so you can understand our perspective and expectations. When EPCC/LPCC first started out, their decks handled like crap as well. But bless their hearts, they kept trying and trying, and they have improved significantly. I hope you are able to recognize the problems in the finish of your cards and make a similar effort to get better. Good luck.

Dear all, here is the Jokers and your comments are highly welcomed. Also we'd like to announce that we decided to decrease the next goal to $10 000 and we hope that the Victoria deck becomes available soon!

Victoria edition is available! We added new pledges and the add-on list, so you can change/add/adjust yours. In addition, I would like to announce that we have reduced the next goal to 15k.

Many thanks to all of you during this campaign!

Sviatoslav Pashchuk wrote:Victoria edition is available! We added new pledges and the add-on list, so you can change/add/adjust yours. In addition, I would like to announce that we have reduced the next goal to 15k.

Many thanks to all of you during this campaign!

Congratulations on the very well earned success of this campaign

I am happy to see this doing well and I want to pledge so badly. But $18 for an NPCC printed deck...

vasta41 wrote:I am happy to see this doing well and I want to pledge so badly. But $18 for an NPCC printed deck...

is it groundhog day again already?? lol

PipChick wrote:

vasta41 wrote:I am happy to see this doing well and I want to pledge so badly. But $18 for an NPCC printed deck...

is it groundhog day again already?? lol

It just bothers me so much that such a nice deck isn't on USPCC paper

Hey guys! Last hours and last chance! Full pack of decks unlocked and available!

vasta41 wrote:I am happy to see this doing well and I want to pledge so badly. But $18 for an NPCC printed deck...

$14 a deck if you take all 3

Yeah the 3 decks release was my catalyst to back. Glad it was unlocked "at the last minute".

Recently I've been working hard on the new project and I'm ready to announce the new deck - Muertos Iluminados. This project will go live on KS on Wednesday, June 20 (Los Angeles 10am PST NY 1pm EDT London 6pm GMT+1) and will be the continuation of El Recuerdo playing cards series. These all decks are to be printed and sent together.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/21 ... n=c61874f5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will the faces of these cards be the same as the faces on the Muertos edition with the red tuck? At quick glace on the KS page-in-work, the faces look the same, but I may be missing something obvious.

rousselle wrote:Will the faces of these cards be the same as the faces on the Muertos edition with the red tuck? At quick glace on the KS page-in-work, the faces look the same, but I may be missing something obvious.

from the Muertos edition:

(unfortunately, this is the only pic we have to represent what the courts will look like in this edition)

from the Muertos Iluminados edition:

Now live:

Still printed by NPCC? Still not interested.

NoirArts wrote:Ok, it's not professional but I'm tired to reading this.
Could you explain in exact numbers which handling is "not crap" and which is "crap" and why?
Let's see exact comparison in numbers and explanations, not just that "crap" speech.

Thanx

This guy comes here asking for exact comparisons and explanations and multiple members here have done just that. So why haven't we heard back from him, or the creator of the El Recuerdo, as to the poor quality of the NPCC finish on their cards? Every time I see ad copy claiming NPCC produced decks are of the "highest quality" it just makes me shake my head. Please, don't insult us with claims that NPCC's finish is as good, or even remotely close, as USPCC, or even close to the Taiwan finishes. Most people here are sophisticated enough to know better.

I wish deck artists who use NPCC would just man up and be honest and admit the NPCC is an economical option, and while the quality may not be on par with other printers, it suits their purposes because their target demographic are collectors who never actually use their cards extensively, so the low quality finish is acceptable to them at the price point they're paying to use NPCC. I can at least respect that and know that the artist is realistic with his customers and not trying to BS anyone.

Well, it might be tough if a deck about Mexico's fight for independence was printed in the US or in Spain.

That kind of stuff has been done before. Jackson had no problem printing a deck about U.S. currency in Taiwan, uh, I mean China.

sinjin7 wrote:That kind of stuff has been done before. Jackson had no problem printing a deck about U.S. currency in Taiwan, uh, I mean China.

And don't forget about these gems: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4p ... pm-designs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; celebrating the legacy of Bicycle playing cards and printing the limited edition black version IN EFFING FRANCE or whereeverthehell. [MURRAY]

Dear all! Almost half way is over and we have unlocked 3 great stretch goals! The tuck box will have special UV ink, foil, embossing and premium black cardstock - can’t wait to see the result! Your support is incredible! Now we’re moving to the new Jokers!

Backed for one deck. I don't need to get an entire series especially as money is tight right now but I think I'll be quite happy with this one.

Campaign closes in about 2 hours. Last call to jump in.