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I just want to comment on a few things that were said in this thread that needs clarificaiton:

Lee Asher was not the one who popularized JNs. Dan and Dave Buck were the one who really set off the boom for JNs when they featured that deck in their DVD release of System in 2004 and their release of Trilogy in 2007. Before that, JNs were an interest to only a few vintage casino card collectors and Dominique Duvivier. But after the release of System, many cardists discovered the unique physical properties of that stock and finish and wanted to be like the Bucks and use JNs in their flourishing routines. Lee just tried to cash in on the JN craze well after the fact when JN prices starting skyrocketing. It was pretty self-serving for EPCC to put in their ad copy of their KS campaign the claim that it was Lee who made JNs popular.

Everyone here is assuming the Jerry's Nugget Casino is the one who brought the IP challenge, but I see 4 possible entities that have potential standing to bring the challenge - Jerry's Nugget Casino, Coca Cola, McDonalds, and EPCC. Of the 4, Jerry's Nugget Casino and EPCC have the weakest case for IP infringement and McDonalds and Coca Cola would have the strongest. More on this later.

People have been knocking off JNs long before Hanson. Remember the black JNs that were floating around eBay several years ago?

Jerrys Nugget Casino is very much interested in protecting their trademark. We in the playing card community think our niche is so big, but in the real world, virtually no one really cares about Jerrys Nugget playing cards. The truth of the matter is that the occasional JN knockoffs don't even register with the real casino. Jerrys Nugget casino is in the business of entertainment and gambling and that's how they make the vast majority of their money, not from playing card sales. I'm sure the casino was aware of the knock offs and parody decks, but they just were not bothered enough in the past to take the time and money to enforce their IP rights. People like Hanson were just too small potatoes. This is why I would be surprised if it was the actual casino that is bringing the IP dispute on KS campaign that is long ended.

I've long maintained that Hanson's' bigger potential headaches could be form McDonalds or Coca Cola, because the court cards chugging Coke and stuffing McDonald's french fries (see the Queen and King of Spades) were more blatant IP ripoffs than Chicken Nuggets. Coca Cola in particular is known for being aggressive in protecting their IP rights. But again, I would be somewhat surprised if either of these giant companies knew about, or would bother to mess with, such small potatoes as Hanson's Chicken Nugget deck, so I doubt it would be them.

So that brings us to EPCC. But the problem with EPCC is that their rights are just a derivative of the casino's IP rights, since all they have is just a license to make replica decks. Plus, it kind of reeks of pettiness if EPCC was in fact the one bringing the IP complaint if the original casino itself couldn't be bothered. Having said that, it must have been annoying to see Hanson knocking off their two deck preview box.

At the end of the day, if it is either Jerrys Nugget Casino finally getting interested in protecting their trademark or EPCC that brought the IP challenge, I agree with those who believe such a challenge would ultimately fail. The Chicken Nugget deck is clearly a mere parody of the original JNs. I suspect the real reason whoever brought this challenge to a campaign that ended way back in 2016 is to block or delay Hanson's upcoming KS campaign. Or maybe Hanson is just a freaking genius and he's the one bringing a bogus challenge to his own old campaign just to gin up interest and hype for his upcoming release! At the end of the day, we may never know who actually brought the dispute.

sinjin7 wrote:I just want to comment on a few things that were said in this thread that needs clarificaiton:
...a bunch of legal stuff...

I've missed you, sinjin. Please stick around.

sinjin7 wrote:Everyone here is assuming the Jerry's Nugget Casino is the one who brought the IP challenge, but I see 4 possible entities that have potential standing to bring the challenge - Jerry's Nugget Casino, Coca Cola, McDonalds, and EPCC. Of the 4, Jerry's Nugget Casino and EPCC have the weakest case for IP infringement and McDonalds and Coca Cola would have the strongest.

That's a really good point, I didn't think about McDonald's or Coca-Cola, but you're right that they probably have the strongest case here, as well as the resources to pursue copyright infringement. The statement that Hanson Chien's team sent out to the backers really makes it feel like they're defending against EPCC though, but that's just speculation since they can't share too much of the details. I personally feel that it would be ruled as a parody if it came down to it, but I'm not a lawyer, plus it would depend on how they choose to defend their case. To me the Chicken Nuggets is like a Weird Al song (except Weird Al usually gets permission) so I hope they end up getting produced. It might not be the most original, but it's good for a laugh.

Or maybe Hanson is just a freaking genius and he's the one bringing a bogus challenge to his own old campaign just to gin up interest and hype for his upcoming release! At the end of the day, we may never know who actually brought the dispute.

I had to laugh at your last theory on this legal challenge. I am not sure it is in the "freaking genius" category, but more "slime ball sneaky fake controversy hyping" category. I guess if it works, sure genius I guess. The key would be to not let the customers/backers know they were behind the legal challenge.

That said, that theory makes as good of sense of any of the ideas. You comments as always are very insightful. That probably makes me weird though doesn't it? Well, one more point on my massively weird scale probably isn't going to matter much.

That said, is there any backers of this project around here to provide some insight on the current state of the project? Has HC messaged you some updates?

Here's the statement I got from them when I messaged them about it:

Dear backers,
We believe you have received the notification from Kickstarter. We are sorry for the circumstance and are actively dealing with the issue. Below is the current status, and we will keep you updated on the latest news.

Hanson Chien Production Company launched the campaign “Vintage Reborn: New Vintage Chicken Nugget Playing Cards!” on Kickstarter on October 08, 2019, and our project was reported trademark infringement on October 29, 2019. We believe it’s a wrong accusation, and we have consulted with our lawyer and submitted a counter-notification to dispute the claim. We hope we can clarify the allegations through Kickstarter’s process. Whether we will enter the proceedings, we take the result seriously.

Hanson has devoted himself to magic and cardistry for over a decade, and our company has been making playing cards since 2011. It’s a labor of love for us. We hope that we can share our decks with magicians, cardists, and collectors and let everyone feel the beauty of playing cards. Jerry’s Nugget Playing Cards is a legendary deck for many card enthusiasts, and seeing people’s passion for JNUGG, we decided to launch “Chicken Nugget Playing Cards” in 2016, combining the feel of JNUGG and our hilarious design, to bring you a snappy deck with an easily affordable price. Most importantly, we’ve always made it clear it’s a tribute to JNUGG, and we’d like to express our sincere respect to the original deck through our art. When we launched the project, the authorized replica hasn’t appeared yet.

New Vintage Chicken Nugget Playing Cards is the second generation product of the Chicken Nugget series and our second Kickstarter campaign. As described in the project, Hanson and collector friends made an effort to discover and authenticate the Vintage Jerry’s Nugget deck. It also took us 3 years to create this tribute-paying deck. From the beginning of the project promotion to the launch, we have never claimed to replace Jerry’s Nugget in any way or described it as an official product collaborated with the casino. To avoid any confusion, we fully explain how the deck pays homage to the Vintage Jerry’s Nugget Playing Cards, and it’s different from JNUGG. The New Vintage Chicken Nugget pattern on the box and at the back of cards is obviously different from the Jerry’s Nugget trademark, such as the font of “Chicken Nugget”, the glow pattern around it, and the angle of the oil derrick tower. Additionally, we have clearly explained our design concept, and we adapted the marketing slogan “Quit Junk Food, Make Life Good” and fast-food gulping face card design to mock the contemporary social issue. The redesigned card and the promoting copy of our campaign and ads both address the distinction between our deck and the original deck. We never mean to infringe or copy Jerry’s Nugget, and we believe you also understand that the product pledged isn’t from the casino.

Kickstarter has always been a place that encourages creation and innovation, and it’s also protective for its creators. If a project is reported for copyright infringement, it will be temporarily hidden from public view, and the reported creator can file for counter dispute claim. However, if the issue remains unresolved in 30 days, the project will be permanently removed. We are actively working on resolving the issue and have submitted our statement to Kickstarter after legal counsel. We hope the project will be back soon. We understand your concerns, and we ask for your patience before Kickstarter completes the investigation. We will keep you informed on the latest progress. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to reach us. Thank you for your support.

Sincerely,
Hanson Chien Production Company

The fact that they had used up more than half of the reply to explain their stance on the trademark infringement, it becomes quite evident that the infringement complaint didn't come from the fast-food chains but the current owner of the JN brand and design... Guess EPCC would be somewhat involved in the case after all.

Decknowledgy wrote:The fact that they had used up more than half of the reply to explain their stance on the trademark infringement, it becomes quite evident that the infringement complaint didn't come from the fast-food chains but the current owner of the JN brand and design... Guess EPCC would be somewhat involved in the case after all.

Sounds plausible.

Confirmed, it's Expert…
Personally, I like decks from EPCC a lot, but I'm still wondering after discussing with a few insiders and coming to know that HC has some misdemeanors in their brand's general marketing scheme, isn't filing a copyright infringement on this campaign an overkill on EPCC's part? The situation right now would entail that:

1. Justified: EPCC has FULL license and ownership over the "Jerry's Nugget" brand, not only the 1970's JN Playing Cards that is publicly renowned but also ALL the JN deck designs that precede or come after that deck.

2. Middleground: If they DON'T have full license of the JN brand, the case is being held against HC for plagiarism and copyright infringement simply according to a juridical judgment that the Chicken Nuggets is copying the 60's design. This is not easy and would need plenty of evidence to prove and also rules that there is no gray zone for parody.

3. Unjustified: If EPCC does not own the full rights to the JN brand but simply the 70's version, making a claim against HC's 60's version is an unjust move that only shows that they seek to damage HC's brand reputation. If there are any complaints being made, the complaint would have to be made by JN themselves, not EPCC. And this makes EPCC look bad in terms of trying to become another monopoly of playing card production by damaging the reputation of another.

Expert was a backer before this campaign was pulled... I really hope that one day they don't put up the same "Vintage 60's JN Deck reprint by EPCC" campaign later after what they did to this campaign.

Thanks for the update.

If that is true then EPCC will be dead for me. Legends are completely independent from EPCC and share nothing besides producing occasionally in the same factory, right?

Well the Nuggets are officially cooked. Kickstarter has just refunded both projects to backers, never seen them do that before. If only they did that for Natalia’s projects now.

Refund on both projects was a mistake. Just got this email:

We’re writing to follow up on a message you received regarding the suspension of a project you backed, “Legend Reborn: Chicken Nugget Playing Cards.” Please disregard any mention of refunds or pledge cancellations from that previous message. Because this project was suspended for an intellectual property dispute that arose after the funding and fulfillment period, no refunds will be issued.

We apologize for any confusion, and thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

Regards, Kickstarter

I kind of hope Hanson Chien just goes ahead and prints these anyways.

RWPPFFShuffle wrote:I kind of hope Hanson Chien just goes ahead and prints these anyways.

+1

Some days (or maybe weeks, but not too far) ago Takumi Takahasi posted in his stories that he had one deck. I can't read Japanese though so I couldn't deciffer what he wrote there and didn't pay closer attention to it. I guess just a prototype but let's hope he already has them printed and needs to release them anyways. I wish this IP non-sense would settle faster and that he can release them. I wanna feel that new stock.

RWPPFFShuffle wrote:I kind of hope Hanson Chien just goes ahead and prints these anyways.

From his website, looks like they already have?

Which website? Didn't saw them at hansonchienproductions.

Harvonsgard wrote:Which website? Didn't saw them at hansonchienproductions.

https://www.hanson-chien.com/

I also got an email from them about their Christmas sale which include different levels of "gifts" based on spending level.

flyers3003 wrote: From his website, looks like they already have?

Huh, I mean, I think those might just be the prototypes he already printed, in which case I'm not all too interested. Especially when it's behind a $150 paywall. Might be a cool collector piece, but I didn't want them for that reason.

RWPPFFShuffle wrote: Huh, I mean, I think those might just be the prototypes he already printed

Yeah, that's why I had the question mark. However there are at least 100 printed - not sure if that is a normal amount of prototypes.

Why is it on Facebook messenger an not on Kickstarter? Something doesn’t seem right or is it just me?

It's funding not onFacebook Messenger but a platform called Backme which seems to be based in Taiwan. It's not on Kickstarter because of the copyright/IP dispute from Bill Kalush and EPCC.

Vintage Legend Reborn: New Vintage Chicken Nugget Playing Cards

Here's the link to the campaign:
https://www.chickennuggetcards.com/

Backme link:
https://newvintagechicken.backme.tw/shops/1224

Ah I see. So could the dispute still have an effect if these are produced or not? Don’t want to back this( again) if it’s just gonna get suspended or company won’t print because of dispute. Also, I’m new here and have learned a whole lot of different things about this crazy hobby of ours.

Sherm said it better than I can.

The original claim was for the KS project, which is governed by US law, so the project got shut down as KS won't risk affecting its cash cow with any law suits. I doubt that Jerry's has an IP claim in Taiwan and even if they did, I don't know how feasible it would be to enforce a claim and that is probably why Hanson is still going ahead with printing.

What about merging this thread with the original Vintage Chicken Nuggets thread?

Does somebody know when this campaign ends ?
https://www.chickennuggetcards.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; shows only the funding status ?

Azid wrote:Does somebody know when this campaign ends ?
https://www.chickennuggetcards.com/ shows only the funding status ?

I don't know anything about this platform (backme.tw), but it looks like this is basically just pre-orders with an added progress report (in relation to the goal).

MagikFingerz wrote:

Azid wrote:Does somebody know when this campaign ends ?
https://www.chickennuggetcards.com/ shows only the funding status ?

I don't know anything about this platform (backme.tw), but it looks like this is basically just pre-orders with an added progress report (in relation to the goal).

yes, i supported this project and it works like any other pre-order. You get redirected to paypal and immediately charged.
It's also allowed to buy decks from the strech goals, even they aren't reached yet. That's why i'm interested how long this project runs.

Did we ever get a refund from backing this on Kickstarter after it was suspended? I’m not gonna pay for them again if I wasn’t refunded the first time. Because it was suspended after campaign was over so we were charged

jahaylj28 wrote:Did we ever get a refund from backing this on Kickstarter after it was suspended? I’m not gonna pay for them again if I wasn’t refunded the first time. Because it was suspended after campaign was over so we were charged

The Kickstarter Campaign was suspended, and Kickstarter shounldn't charge anything from you. Check your credit card bills of November.