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On a positive note the total number of backers looks like it contains to rise, I’m guessing the number of backers is what’s more important in the long term. I don’t remember seeing, is this going to be on backerkit after the campaign again? I’d guess a few people wait until then to decide to add more stuff on, I’ve certainly done that. I’d be interested to know how much additional funds you’ve got on backerkit in previous campaigns.

Sir Toddalot wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:53 pm On a positive note the total number of backers looks like it contains to rise, I’m guessing the number of backers is what’s more important in the long term. I don’t remember seeing, is this going to be on backerkit after the campaign again? I’d guess a few people wait until then to decide to add more stuff on, I’ve certainly done that. I’d be interested to know how much additional funds you’ve got on backerkit in previous campaigns.

Well. It varies. Averages out to about $25-30k over the period where late backers can find the project and backers have added extra. It’s usually over a 3-5 month period. It doesn’t help much for stretch goals because I normal place orders way in advance of raising those additional funds. And in this economy there’s no chickens to count.

Campaign doldrums are the worst. The market is so soft. A slew of negative adjustments yesterday and today. Really makes me question what I couldv'e done better. It's a shame a deck project I consider to be among my best will be measured the least successfully.

Here's the thing though, we can guess but we don't have the data on what people are changing.

I can give my thoughts, you wont be surprised by some of them, but its an outside(mostly) looking in and my own feelings the only hard facts I can see is the change in the # of the top 2 pledges.

I do think that in general the very high average pledge is a large part of it.

I cant say Im surprised, I had in my head that the campaign was likely to end at least $3k below its peak but I started to think that some of the past large swings was going to take care of that. At this point Im just hoping it stays over $112.5k

And yes I do think this is the best of your current and probably future known campaigns so far. (really looking forward to the next CAP, the grave witness art style really isnt up my alley, I'll still get some decks)

Don't let the pursuit of perfection overshadow your current achievements. I know you were hoping for more, but you've created a beautiful series of cards and this is by all accounts an incredibly successful campaign. Some things are just out of our control.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:55 pm
I cant say Im surprised, I had in my head that the campaign was likely to end at least $3k below its peak but I started to think that some of the past large swings was going to take care of that. At this point Im just hoping it stays over $112.5k

Even if it does, I'm not walking back the borders/legacy.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:25 pm

Even if it does, I'm not walking back the borders/legacy.

Then I will reward your good faith in kind, that end any debate I had about keeping the legacy deck.

I just want to say while I understand being less enthusiastic that it didn’t do as well as you wanted, given the economy, state of the community and general reduction in card collecting, I see this as a win still.

I know it’s not much but clearly there’s support. It just may not be as much support as one could expect previously.

Im curious Omar, what criteria do you view highest when rating success?

backers
decks
$

(and just so its clear this is entirely to compare against other recent campaigns, and perhaps suggestions)

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:12 pm Campaign doldrums are the worst. The market is so soft. A slew of negative adjustments yesterday and today. Really makes me question what I couldv'e done better. It's a shame a deck project I consider to be among my best will be measured the least successfully.

We all know that backers can jump in and out of campaigns for any amount of times they wish to, without any real consequence. Hell, anyone can pledge a $1000 without a reward and then cancel it before the end. Then you'll have to factor in payment collection after all that — backers can still refuse to pay. This is just what people do because kickstarter allows it — it's nothing personal, unless it's intentional.

For what could be done better, it's been said again and again: keep it simpler. Nothing else you can do if there's not much market to sell to. The perception of lesser success only comes from the highest expectations. Look at KWP, one of the names you always bring up when talking success, current campaign's sitting on $43k, 876%.

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:46 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:12 pm Campaign doldrums are the worst. The market is so soft. A slew of negative adjustments yesterday and today. Really makes me question what I couldv'e done better. It's a shame a deck project I consider to be among my best will be measured the least successfully.

We all know that backers can jump in and out of campaigns for any amount of times they wish to, without any real consequence. Hell, anyone can pledge a $1000 without a reward and then cancel it before the end. Then you'll have to factor in payment collection after all that — backers can still refuse to pay. This is just what people do because kickstarter allows it — it's nothing personal, unless it's intentional.

For what could be done better, it's been said again and again: keep it simpler. Nothing else you can do if there's not much market to sell to. The perception of lesser success only comes from the highest expectations. Look at KWP, one of the names you always bring up when talking success, current campaign's sitting on $43k, 876%.

Lets put that in perspective though, the KWP project is a new version combining two existing decks, at a time hes selling something new on his web site every day.

Their Two towers campaign earlier in the year did $430k (yeah LOTR audience) and Jackson says he hopes return of the king does *$1M*

Omar is selling variants of an entirely new deck. (a really nice new deck) and in a lot of ways its been really successful, just not against his own previous successes.

Giovanni (TWI) did 48k euro and 482 backers for an entirely new deck. Thats a more apt comparison.

Parlour was designed by none other than Lorenzo, and he brings a ton of experience and interest by just involving him...well that and that he designed the socks off of it. Lotrek then came into the picture and well, again....Lotrek. While Keven has a ton of talent, I am not sure he carried the same Kickstarter star power. That said, the campaign had some expensive kit and it resonated at the time. Personally, I really like Widikk and his whole design style, which I think Omar is using to great effect. I think any playing card campaign in the proposed format and price range that can put up numbers like $125K range is a heavy hitting campaign on Kickstarter right now. TGW has a solid reputation of putting out some really nice cards with quality design and production behind it. I didn't hesitate backing this one.

The beetle backs is as simple as I'm ever likely to get. Other than maybe my releases with Kevin coming soon and Parlour V which won't be as many editions (conceivably).

I always release a red/blue standard pair. I always have a black and gold foil deck. I always have a dynastinae and prism. The Legacy edition will likely continue moving forward too (in some form or another).

Part of the reason I make the campaigns the way that I do is because I try not to double dip in KS and have more than one unfulfilled campaign at once. The economy has shown that may not be sustainable however and I fully expect to launch Parlour V before completing fulfillment on Beetle Backs. It's just the only way to stay afloat. TGW the business has a lot of investment and capital tied up in projects and it needs to be made whole. SO that I can continue to work on stuff beyond the CAP series, Parlour V and the Grave Witness.

As far as what my criteria for 'success' is... I think it varies project to project...obviously. Successor made the most funding, but was also far and away the most expensive to produce. Tempest was pound for pound the most successful campaign but was also the most stressful (due to late delivery... very late). I think Beetle Backs is a success. FOr sure. It was worth doing. HOWEVER I do wish my backer count was closer to 1000 than 500.

of course more backers are better than fewer, but for big numbers the more fan bases you can tap into the better,

again just look at KWP with LOTR(I'm sure that license wasnt cheap though), and you with Wyrmwood.

I can see parlour being fairly successful for that reason (funny enough spellcheck turned successful into successor....).

Things I thinks I would have done different

-shorter campaign, I looked at quite a few when this one started, pretty much everyone makes 90% in the first 3 days unless there are big unlocks...the longer it goes the more time you give people to think about why they don't really need X, 10 days or so Tuesday to the next Friday. You have backerkit and a web site to catch the late comers.

-less unknowns on the unlocks, if a deck is released...thats the deck no ambiguity on deck features changing depending on funding levels. This is the second campaign in the last month Ive had to deal with that, and the other I damn near canceled entirely (even though in the end the unlock happened...last day of the campaign).

-meter hype levels better, I would release new decks/offerings on a schedule, for this, about once a week, you sorely needed to go out with a bang this week and there is nothing left to offer

-this is more personal but difference between decks matter, I don't need 2 decks with the same face with a different back, and Im getting close to not needing that same deck again with gilding. I REALLY like that the two editions I collect of your series (prestige and dynastinae) have distinctly different faces this time and are different than the base deck again I don't own any base TGW decks but I will for beetle backs.

-I will not buy things I dont want to get things I do. As I stated at the start, I would have bought into the prototype level if it didn't have that extra brick, even though the brick is a REALLY good deal.

-timing again wasn't good, as Ive said before October was brutal on my card budget and Christmas is Christmas, I have sufficient disposable income..not everyone does.

-planned over a year to fulfill is along time I dunno if this scared anyone but it might.

Great write up Evilgamer.

Personally I think it’s timing, people’s budget & overall cost.

Cheers,
KW

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:07 pm The beetle backs is as simple as I'm ever likely to get. Other than maybe my releases with Kevin coming soon and Parlour V which won't be as many editions (conceivably).

I always release a red/blue standard pair. I always have a black and gold foil deck. I always have a dynastinae and prism. The Legacy edition will likely continue moving forward too (in some form or another).

Part of the reason I make the campaigns the way that I do is because I try not to double dip in KS and have more than one unfulfilled campaign at once. The economy has shown that may not be sustainable however and I fully expect to launch Parlour V before completing fulfillment on Beetle Backs. It's just the only way to stay afloat. TGW the business has a lot of investment and capital tied up in projects and it needs to be made whole. SO that I can continue to work on stuff beyond the CAP series, Parlour V and the Grave Witness.

As far as what my criteria for 'success' is... I think it varies project to project...obviously. Successor made the most funding, but was also far and away the most expensive to produce. Tempest was pound for pound the most successful campaign but was also the most stressful (due to late delivery... very late). I think Beetle Backs is a success. FOr sure. It was worth doing. HOWEVER I do wish my backer count was closer to 1000 than 500.

I think this is totally right. I'm glad there is a pattern with deck types. There's only one thing that comes to my mind. When there is everything on the table from day one, the campaign could maybe be shorter. There is no point in waiting.

Maybe people are just not that into beetles - I at least considered them whereas a snail deck I would not even bother looking at. Just another thought

Over 110k in funding and nearly 600 backers... this is not something to look down upon.

CCwonder wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:49 am Over 110k in funding and nearly 600 backers... this is not something to look down upon.

Sure! of course. I'm definitely overall a glass half full guy, but it is a bit deflating to drop $7k in funding. At the VERY top end of the campaign funding that money is really where the profit is. So $7k definitely hurts. And with another 2 days left, at this rate it may dip even further. I think it just sucks that so many people were excited to pledge and then had to back out or reduce their pledge. It shows that expendable incomes aren't what they used to be. Some folks dropped $700+ pledges. That's someone who was so excited they added everything and then when the reality struck realized they couldn't even afford a more modest amount.

On a more sobering note... If the campaigns continue this downward spiral you will see a dramatic drop off in quality and offerings across the industry. These campaigns typically take over 1 year to put together. Sometimes 2. And with production prices going up and funding goals coming down the viability of the model is in jeopardy

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:04 pm

On a more sobering note... If the campaigns continue this downward spiral you will see a dramatic drop off in quality and offerings across the industry. These campaigns typically take over 1 year to put together. Sometimes 2. And with production prices going up and funding goals coming down the viability of the model is in jeopardy

Have you thought about trying a Patreon? It seems to work pretty well for Gio, Lorenzo, Lotrek, and Jocu.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:04 pm

CCwonder wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:49 am Over 110k in funding and nearly 600 backers... this is not something to look down upon.

Sure! of course. I'm definitely overall a glass half full guy, but it is a bit deflating to drop $7k in funding. At the VERY top end of the campaign funding that money is really where the profit is. So $7k definitely hurts. And with another 2 days left, at this rate it may dip even further. I think it just sucks that so many people were excited to pledge and then had to back out or reduce their pledge. It shows that expendable incomes aren't what they used to be. Some folks dropped $700+ pledges. That's someone who was so excited they added everything and then when the reality struck realized they couldn't even afford a more modest amount.

On a more sobering note... If the campaigns continue this downward spiral you will see a dramatic drop off in quality and offerings across the industry. These campaigns typically take over 1 year to put together. Sometimes 2. And with production prices going up and funding goals coming down the viability of the model is in jeopardy

Theres a lot of factors to it, I will almost always pledge for things I'm not sold on and then make final cuts the last few days of a campaign, its easier than deciding at the last minute I want something thats limited and find it sold out. Or if there are stretch goals involved what the outcome of that was and then rebalance accordingly. I doubt I'm the only one. Especially when there are $70 and $80 decks involved. Hell, there is one deck (not one of yours) Ive dropped 4 times from 2 separate campaigns because I just decided in the end every time that it wasn't worth the money. It's harsh to say, but thats happening on this campaign, people are deciding that X really isn't worth the price to them, or they dont need that many decks of the same design. You can disagree, I can disagree (my now complete Dynastinae set says hi) but thats what's happening.

As for the broader industry, again I dont have a handle on what it costs to produce decks but since I started backing card campaigns a few months ago 500 backers/$50k is about where most things have landed.

Even historically established brands dont always have huge KS campaigns. KWP basically has their LOTR campaigns which are MASSIVE, their PI campaigns which average about 260 backers, and the others like invocation that get about 500/$45k...and this is going back years

TWI/Giovanni averages about 450 backers, his largest campaign ever was this year at about 70k euros and 728 backers.

So I think doom and gloom for good decks/KS campaigns is a bit premature. Especially when you have one of the better ones by most metrics this year. May you need to reevaluate how to do the next campaign? probably. Can you still be successful, yes.

If anything I think that if the market settles on less campaigns total but better campaigns like TGW that it would be healthier. Would let those projects individually have better results rather that compete with a dozen or so other campaigns at the same time.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:04 pm

CCwonder wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:49 am Over 110k in funding and nearly 600 backers... this is not something to look down upon.

Sure! of course. I'm definitely overall a glass half full guy, but it is a bit deflating to drop $7k in funding. At the VERY top end of the campaign funding that money is really where the profit is. So $7k definitely hurts. And with another 2 days left, at this rate it may dip even further. I think it just sucks that so many people were excited to pledge and then had to back out or reduce their pledge. It shows that expendable incomes aren't what they used to be. Some folks dropped $700+ pledges. That's someone who was so excited they added everything and then when the reality struck realized they couldn't even afford a more modest amount.

On a more sobering note... If the campaigns continue this downward spiral you will see a dramatic drop off in quality and offerings across the industry. These campaigns typically take over 1 year to put together. Sometimes 2. And with production prices going up and funding goals coming down the viability of the model is in jeopardy

I think I did mention something about high-end Collectable Decks coming to a head soon, in a thread of one of your previous campaigns (Successor?). I think the signs were showing up a couple years ago. If it weren’t for the shows I vendor at, I would stop designing Playing Cards

Thanks, Randy

Adamthinks wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:12 pm
Have you thought about trying a Patreon? It seems to work pretty well for Gio, Lorenzo, Lotrek, and Jocu.

He kind of did, the "CAP" series was supposed to be a $99 2 deck set released every few months much in line with TWI or Lotrek subscriptions $30/month.

The sales weren't as good as hoped (and then the cartamundi factory move happened, and the CAP decks are Cartamundi decks). Now CAP #2 will be a kickstarter.

Personally I dont think his release tempo is high enough for a patreon type rotation, but we have Lotrek in the conversation so...yyeah. (Giovanni makes everyone look bad in that regard).

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:02 pm The sales weren't as good as hoped (and then the cartamundi factory move happened, and the CAP decks are Cartamundi decks). Now CAP #2 will be a kickstarter.

For CAP I can only say that it is highly dependent on the artist. Kevin Cantrell is for example nothing that strikes my fancy.

I’m starting to regret committing to the black borders. $8k negative adjustments in the last week.

Sigh.

Tail-end coinciding with Christmas shopping Luckily, there's so little time left that the downward trend won't have time to really get going.

I feel for ya Omar. Please don't get discouraged, because I think those that believe this is your strongest campaign are right. The design is fantastic, the campaign shows all the hallmarks of a producer who's done this before and the stretch goals are legitimately exciting. I still see Kicktraq predicting a $114k finish and I've got my fingers crossed. My pledge ain't going anywhere.

I just went to take a look and ended up adding more items

kevork wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:15 am I just went to take a look and ended up adding more items

I dropped my pledge early on in the campaign and haven't looked back.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:47 pm I’m starting to regret committing to the black borders. $8k negative adjustments in the last week.

Sigh.

Much like the prism faces I would look at it as a long term investment, Im sure you have a number of decks you intend to print for the store. And by keeping the black borders you have given people an incentive to buy both a prestige/limited and dynastinae and get very different decks after the campaign.

Sure it sucks (a lot) for now, but if you change your mind the slide is going to get even worse.

The diminished funding will have a dramatic effect on the print run totals. These decks will end up being the most rare TGW decks. Although I will reserve the right to print 1500 legacy for instance. Chances are production will be closer to 500.