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Eoghann wrote:

You're going to warehouse them to CostCo?

One of you guys that wanted one should have asked me..I would have gladly sniped one for you in the second wave using your account... Hmmm a new business opportunity. Kickstarter sniper extraordinaire

badpete69 wrote:One of you guys that wanted one should have asked me..I would have gladly sniped one for you in the second wave using your account... Hmmm a new business opportunity. Kickstarter sniper extraordinaire

No thanks Peter. You've convinced me the game is rig. I'm not going to be part of it.

I canceled my pledge, if anybody is interested in the $80 level its open.

I don't believe that Chris is part of the rigging, but his maximizing revenue by creating artificial limitation of the number of PR's and doling them out this way ... I'm totally turned-off.

/bama

If be happy with the $80 tier pledge but it's already gone again! FFS

Jay, maybe Chris will open up more slots for $80 tier as there are quite a few single set tiers still open so it wouldn't hurt to reshuffle numbers around. So there is still a chance

Slavich I like your thinking. Here's hoping!!

bamabenz wrote:No thanks Peter. You've convinced me the game is rig. I'm not going to be part of it.

I canceled my pledge, if anybody is interested in the $80 level its open.

I don't believe that Chris is part of the rigging, but his maximizing revenue by creating artificial limitation of the number of PR's and doling them out this way ... I'm totally turned-off.

Say what, Bama? Peter has the world's fastest Internet because of where he works. (which is only his business, I just happen to know)

Seriously? WTH does Chris have to do with that? The offer of 10 decks of each PR is truly a nice gesture for the collectors, certainly not intended to be elitist, and he posted the preview for backers several hours in advance - which is why they were gone before my pitifully slow satellite Internet even showed that the project was live. I'd like to have had an opportunity, but quite pleased with my red PR, and everyone had equal opportunity then as well (uncuts and bricks sale) There's nothing artificial about them, only 150 were printed.

Actually, Chris got screwed because of the way KS won't decide "dead heat" ties - down to the millisecond (it doesn't - it oversells the tier instead), which is why both sold more than the five he intended. Now, he'd REALLY be screwed if he physically didn't have them, huh?

I think the elimination of the Amazon payment step is why these were gone in seconds.
If KS is going to allow a limited tier to be oversold we may see creators backing off of ultra limited items.
Just too much of a risk for them and too many angry people who feel there isn't a fair chance to get them.

4 years ago if I would have told everyone who got in that pledge level including myself that we would be spending $165 on 6 decks of cards , no one would have believed me [BACON]

Slavich wrote:Jay, maybe Chris will open up more slots for $80 tier as there are quite a few single set tiers still open so it wouldn't hurt to reshuffle numbers around. So there is still a chance

I agreed not to say before he announced it: roll your own - add $12 to the $70 tier If you want to add the collector's box. No extra shipping charge...

DragonSoul wrote:I think the elimination of the Amazon payment step is why these were gone in seconds.
If KS is going to allow a limited tier to be oversold we may see creators backing off of ultra limited items.
Just too much of a risk for them and too many angry people who feel there isn't a fair chance to get them.

It's happened before - with Amazon Payments. KS won't break what it sees as a "dead heat". Last time I remember was during Heretic.

Mike Ratledge wrote:

bamabenz wrote:No thanks Peter. You've convinced me the game is rig. I'm not going to be part of it.

I canceled my pledge, if anybody is interested in the $80 level its open.

I don't believe that Chris is part of the rigging, but his maximizing revenue by creating artificial limitation of the number of PR's and doling them out this way ... I'm totally turned-off.

Say what, Bama? Peter has the world's fastest Internet because of where he works. (which is only his business, I just happen to know)

Seriously? WTH does Chris have to do with that? The offer of 10 decks of each PR is truly a nice gesture for the collectors, certainly not intended to be elitist, and he posted the preview for backers several hours in advance - which is why they were gone before my pitifully slow satellite Internet even showed that the project was live. I'd like to have had an opportunity, but quite pleased with my red PR, and everyone had equal opportunity then as well (uncuts and bricks sale) There's nothing artificial about them, only 150 were printed.

Actually, Chris got screwed because of the way KS won't decide "dead heat" ties - down to the millisecond (it doesn't - it oversells the tier instead), which is why both sold more than the five he intended. Now, he'd REALLY be screwed if he physically didn't have them, huh?

Huh? Chris got screwed? Hold on a second, let me shed a tear.

His milking the PR for every possible buck is a nice gesture?

I'm more on the fence with KS not being able to handle dead heats.
I think it more likely that folks figured out how to hack KS than they can't figure out how to be transactional.

At the end of the day each of us makes a decision how to spend their money -- which business to back.
I've decided that I back artists, not businesses. Chris is operating a business whose model I do not want to support.

Its not just that I missed-out on the the decks I wanted to get -- I missed out on the Red Gatorbacks as well.
Despite bad execution on the DB side, I don't believe that it was planned scarcity -- I've happily spent $50 a deck on eBay to get those great Stutzman decks.

Chris C. has planned this out and I'm not buying it anymore.

/bama

The very second the PR was mentioned on the blog and that it "wasn't for sale" we all knew the actual plan. NOBODY prints a load of super duper rare decks to sit on them and just happens to casually "oh, by the way" us. The intentions are crystal clear.

The carrot on the stick always has a price. Some greater than others.

Everyone does it. Many of our most esteemed designers have done this at some point.

"Do this/buy this/back this/like and comment this/spend this much and get a deck/trinket/box/signature/surprise!"

Eoghann wrote:The very second the PR was mentioned on the blog and that it "wasn't for sale" we all knew the actual plan. NOBODY prints a load of super duper rare decks to sit on them and just happens to casually "oh, by the way" us. The intentions are crystal clear.

Whether it was intended by Chris or not (I suspect, like you, that it was), these decks have largely become a method to get us to buy more other 'stuff' than we might have otherwise. It's no different that Black Ghost v1's, LTD's and White Centurions though - the bigger guys were the trailblazers at this, with others such as JR (Unbranded Reserve Note, etc) and Chris are just following along.

The only way this doesn't work is if we don't buy the decks/other stuff to get the freebie. Yup, right.... that's going to work ... if we largely weren't so addicted.

In this project the PR set is effectively $85.... I'd much rather go buy 4-5 UUSI decks from their website to be honest.

bamabenz wrote:Huh? Chris got screwed? Hold on a second, let me shed a tear.

Mike was referring to the situation if Chris didn't have the additional decks. This is exactly how some prototype decks have been sold - how would an artist go who had made 4 prototypes (or some other limited physical item) when Kickstarter lets many more pledge in that 'limited tier'?

In this case Chris (presumably) has plenty to cover Kickstarters lack of control, but it highlights an area in significant need of improvement in their system.

Gareth wrote: Whether it was intended by Chris or not (I suspect, like you, that it was), these decks have largely become a method to get us to buy more other 'stuff' than we might have otherwise. It's no different that Black Ghost v1's, LTD's and White Centurions though - the bigger guys were the trailblazers at this, with others such as JR (Unbranded Reserve Note, etc) and Chris are just following along.

The only way this doesn't work is if we don't buy the decks/other stuff to get the freebie. Yup, right.... that's going to work ... if we largely weren't so addicted.

I agree with you, except that you're wrong about the Unbranded LE Reserve notes. Those were offered as separate pledge tiers.

I think the Scarlett Tallys are a great counter example campaign. They are certainly limited and more expensive ($20/36/124), but they were offered in enough numbers that folks could get gilded decks if they were waiting for the campaign to start -- even though the project funded in 10 minutes. And there were pledges available for the rest of the 700 decks for about two days.

Sorry to get so heated about this.

/bama

This is all just way too disappointing. I should have never offered PR decks in these campaigns to begin with. Hundreds of emails requesting an opportunity to get PR decks...so I set aside 164 Reds and 10 Golds...and people are still upset. I do apologize to everyone did not get in on the top tier LE pledge, but it's not about that. Those tiers do not make or break this campaign. It's about the LE Gamesters....or the standard Gamesters...not the PR's.

Eoghann wrote:The very second the PR was mentioned on the blog and that it "wasn't for sale" we all knew the actual plan. NOBODY prints a load of super duper rare decks to sit on them and just happens to casually "oh, by the way" us. The intentions are crystal clear.

LE Gamesters have the same exact print run as the Red PR's....1000. There is no gimmick with the PR decks...they were printed for me because I don't have any original Whispering Imps left to use. I have not created a retail price for the decks, and I do not sell them on eBay. They are also to be given out as gifts which is the exact reason the tuck flap says "Compliments of". I was very sad to see what I thought was a genuine gift to a few people, turn out to be meaningless when the PR decks I gave them went on eBay a day later.

see_squared wrote:They are also to be given out as gifts which is the exact reason the tuck flap says "Compliments of". I was very sad to see what I thought was a genuine gift to a few people, turn out to be meaningless when the PR decks I gave them went on eBay a day later.

I won't get involved in the overall discussion, but I wanted to say say however that the 2 decks you sent to us will never be sold They were received in the spirit you intended, and it is appreciated. Until now we've not even mentioned that, but I thought it would be nice to add.

Paul Middleton wrote:

see_squared wrote:They are also to be given out as gifts which is the exact reason the tuck flap says "Compliments of". I was very sad to see what I thought was a genuine gift to a few people, turn out to be meaningless when the PR decks I gave them went on eBay a day later.

I won't get involved in the overall discussion, but I wanted to say say however that the 2 decks you sent to us will never be sold They were received in the spirit you intended, and it is appreciated. Until now we've not even mentioned that, but I thought it would be nice to add.

Thank you Paul.

see_squared wrote:This is all just way too disappointing. I should have never offered PR decks in these campaigns to begin with. Hundreds of emails requesting an opportunity to get PR decks...so I set aside 164 Reds and 10 Golds...and people are still upset. I do apologize to everyone did not get in on the top tier LE pledge, but it's not about that. Those tiers do not make or break this campaign. It's about the LE Gamesters....or the standard Gamesters...not the PR's.

LE Gamesters have the same exact print run as the Red PR's....1000. There is no gimmick with the PR decks...they were printed for me because I don't have any original Whispering Imps left to use. I have not created a retail price for the decks, and I do not sell them on eBay. They are also to be given out as gifts which is the exact reason the tuck flap says "Compliments of". I was very sad to see what I thought was a genuine gift to a few people, turn out to be meaningless when the PR decks I gave them went on eBay a day later.

You're right Chris, if they were intended to be just your private reserve..they should've stayed private. I'm really sorry but I won't buy for one second that you're giving these away out of the goodness of your heart. Noone does. Specially after announcing them on the blog, specifying how rare they are and giving them away with the purchase of high level tiers. You know how a collector's mind works. Same goes for every other designer who says "these weren't meant for the public, but I like you guys so much so what the heck! Buy a brick and I'll throw one in there!"

The very second a collector catches the slightest whiff of something super rare, we're slobbering over them like wild dogs. That goes for prototypes, limited editions, limited runs. Heck, slap a sticker on a standard deck and call it limited and people will pay for it. It's simple business. And I'm ok with that. I need to stress that a lot of us are OK with that marketing tactic to a certain extent. And you printed 1000 Red PRs for Christ's sake. That's not exactly "they're only meant for me and my friends" quantities. That's a lot of decks.

What I DON'T like is this whole aw shucks, bleeding heart thing where you're disappointed people are turning around and selling them for stupid high prices. That french reseller (I forget his name) went ahead and immediately upon receiving it sold PR Gold for like $400 "just to test the waters". I mean who are we trying to kid here.

It's the nature of the beast, Chris. Limited editions and rarities wouldn't even be a thing if they couldn't be used to make money. That's why you're not giving them away with low level tiers or just by themselves. And that's why people make multiple accounts on Kickstarter or pledge crazy amounts. Because it'll net them serious bank in the long run.

The private reserve Imps were always just a bonus that a lucky few would be able to get their hands on. Sure, I was aiming for the $165 level like so many others, but I laughed at how I hit the pledge button the same second as it seemed to have launched and still got beat by eight other backers when the pledge limit was 5 to begin with. I knew my chances were slim to begin with but gave it a try, and I would've been a lot more surprised had I actually gotten in one them.

I'm in this for the enjoyment and I see no point in getting angry, upset, disappointed or anything similar over missing out on something that was just a surprise bonus to begin with. I feel lucky to have gotten in on a level with the LE Gamesters at all, and I'm glad for the guys who managed to snag the PR sets. I understand that there might be a bit of disappointment among the ones who lost out on them but we don't need to nor can we own every single deck so let's enjoy the ones we have!

Edit: saw this, thought I'd respond.

Eoghann wrote: And you printed 1000 Red PRs for Christ's sake. That's not exactly "they're only meant for me and my friends" quantities. That's a lot of decks.

1k decks isn't that much if you go through them like I used to do - I averaged 1-2 per week, and then add on the amount I gave away to friends and family, and to kids who were amazed by magic (gotta reward that behavior considering how terrible I really am at magic ). If you're a collector and just that - sure, 1k decks of the same design is a LOT. But if you use them for practice, shows, card games and give away to people now and then it isn't that many, especially not if it's your own design meaning you want to not run out within the first 2-3 years.

Chris, I think you may have this issue over the PR's because if it's a gift to people, it's an expensive gift. Anything that can be purchased, everyone wants to purchase even if they can't or won't. It's unfortunate that you're having to experience this problem. May be consider it flattery instead and have a smile?

While you're smiling, letting your pal Fes have a new tier with six LE gamester decks would probably make you feel even better, all kind of happy inside! Win/Win/Win mmm mmm good.

(after the internet fixer people show up today though please.)

Marcus wrote: 1k decks isn't that much if you go through them like I used to do - I averaged 1-2 per week, and then add on the amount I gave away to friends and family, and to kids who were amazed by magic (gotta reward that behavior considering how terrible I really am at magic ). If you're a collector and just that - sure, 1k decks of the same design is a LOT. But if you use them for practice, shows, card games and give away to people now and then it isn't that many, especially not if it's your own design meaning you want to not run out within the first 2-3 years.

That's a very valid point with a deck intended to be used. When you have a deck such as the PR which is essentially a tuck swap with the standard version, considering it's apparent rarity and value, you'd have to be crazy to open it when the more readily available and less costly versions are around. I doubt Kimble bought three Gold Venexianas because he's afraid to wear them down when playing. Or Unbranded Black Reserve Notes for that that matter.

Eoghann wrote:I'm really sorry but I won't buy for one second that you're giving these away out of the goodness of your heart.

If only you really knew me. I have a detailed list of everyone who has received PR's from me. So far I've given away 212 Red PR decks (not including the 50 from the Halloween promotion or any from the recent Gamesters campaign). I myself, have gone through at least a deck a week since I got them. By Spring, 1/3 of them will have been given away.

Eoghann wrote:What I DON'T like is this whole aw shucks, bleeding heart thing where you're disappointed people are turning around and selling them for stupid high prices.

I'm not trying to be rude here but how would you feel if you gave me a gift, a token of appreciation, I take it and then I put it up on eBay the next day for what could be a huge 100% profit? It's one thing if it's a PR deck acquired from the Halloween promo...I get it...that's what people do. But a genuine gift as a token of appreciation for being a friend or loyal customer...not a good feeling.

Eoghann wrote: That's a very valid point with a deck intended to be used. When you have a deck such as the PR which is essentially a tuck swap with the standard version, considering it's apparent rarity and value, you'd have to be crazy to open it when the more readily available and less costly versions are around. I doubt Kimble bought three Gold Venexianas because he's afraid to wear them down when playing. Or Unbranded Black Reserve Notes for that that matter.

Yeah, it's kind of a tuck swap in this case, but if Chris had none of the original decks left then a reprint sounds like a better option than to purchase his own decks back from people for premium prices on Ebay.

As for people selling decks they were given as gifts I've never really understood that. People are free to do what they want with that they have, but for me a deck I've been given by the creator as a gift is a memory for me that I want to have displayed so that I'm reminded of my friends of whom many are unfortunately located far away from where I live these days. But to each his own I guess.

Just one quick note on the LE Gamesters campaign only...Chris really didn't use the PR set to sell additional decks. It's not buy a brick of LE Gamesters or anything. It's literally the same pledge as the 4 deck pledge for $80 but he's adding in the PR set. No gimmick, no promo. And considering how much they sell for on eBay, the price he set really IS a gift to those who lucked out. Just an added bonus to this campaign, literally nothing else. No reason we should be roasting him for it (inclusion in LE Gamester campaign specifically).

Just wanted people to realize that. I lucked out and was one of the lucky 7(8)...but regardless, I wasn't forced to buy "extra." I appreciate that a ton.

Congrats, SpecialK!

(In secrecy I'm now plotting to stop your parcel in transit.)

I think one the day the postman is going to start stealing my packages - it'll probably start with these!

Marcus wrote:Congrats, SpecialK!

(In secrecy I'm now plotting to stop your parcel in transit.)

Oh man, that ranks right up there next to 'Before I kill you Mr. Bond..."

/bama

Eoghann wrote:I doubt Kimble bought three Gold Venexianas because he's afraid to wear them down when playing. Or Unbranded Black Reserve Notes for that that matter.

Hey, why did you put me in the middle of this.

I'm going to put my two cents in here. I honestly felt the same way about the RUN decks. An artificial rarity was created. I refused to by any of them but I was lucky enough to win a bankroll edition from JP Playing cards so I bought the other two. Could I sell them right now for a large profit, hellz yes, but I have no intention of doing so. I do see where Chris is coming from as far a having gifts being sold. It is kinda a slap in the face but one he brought on himself. I understand both sides of the argument here and I say let's let it go. No need in running Chris off like Jackson.