Tank Masters - Relaunch (Live on the Kickstarter)!

[Räpylätassu]

So the Soviet Union became “invasors” (whatever that might be) alongside with the Axis powers? Someone really ought to read the history books (and an English dictionary won’t come amiss).

From a Finn here, look up Winter War (1939-1940) from the history books and tell me more on how the Soviet Union weren't invaders.

Roope - I am not going to get into a historical argument here and far be it for me to whitewash what the Soviet Union did before or after but do you honestly think that WWII would have been won without the SU? Or that the nazis would be treating anyone better?

I never said any of that, don't put words to my mouth. Yeah Soviet Union was the main reason Nazi's were defeated and they paid a heavy price for it and that was the lesser evil, but that does not change their unprovoked attack on Finland, which started the Winter War, or the unprovoked attacks and conquests of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Also I want to make clear that in 1939 Finland was not allied or had any plans to ally themselves with Nazi's. Winter War changed that, Finland did started to support the Nazi's and prepare the nation for war. People from that time have said that the choise was like choosing between the plague and cholera. First the idea was just to take back the old territories that Soviet Union had stolen in Winter War, which they did. And after that came perhaps the most shameful moment in Finnish history as the troops stepped over the old bordes to invade Soviet Union in turn. This period is known as the Continuation War, which yeah... isn't exactly the proudest moments of Finnish history.

[Magic Tapp]

Roope - my friend, I hear what you are trying to say and I can see that you feel rather strongly about this. I respect your point of view and was not trying to misinterpret what you were saying. All I was trying to point out with my initial post is that in this particular case, the creator’s political agenda is spilling into the playing cards art (and not for the first time - last time it was something along the lines of “a good Russian is a dead Russian”) and I simply cannot condone it.

History is a subjective science but painting the Soviets with the same brush as the Nazis is a step too far.

[Räpylätassu]

Roope - my friend, I hear what you are trying to say and I can see that you feel rather strongly about this. I respect your point of view and was not trying to misinterpret what you were saying. All I was trying to point out with my initial post is that in this particular case, the creator’s political agenda is spilling into the playing cards art (and not for the first time - last time it was something along the lines of “a good Russian is a dead Russian”) and I simply cannot condone it.

History is a subjective science but painting the Soviets with the same brush as the Nazis is a step too far.

Stalin did kill just as many people as Hitler did... An argument could be made that Stalin mass killed to create a system of power for himself and Hitler killed because he wanted to eradicate certain groups of people from existence, which might be more sinister motive, but when you murder millions then the reasons for it don't really matter.

I remember the creators comment on Russians, which for which I spoke against once they were posted here. I know that the Soviet Union was the country that won the war for the allies, which the western countries do not acknowledge enough and it really grinds my gears everytime.

Thing is, good deeds don't wash away the bad. The deck shows Invaders of the WW2, not the Axis powers. Soviet Union invaded Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia... Invaiding several countries kinda makes you an invader.

[ICantShuffle]

History is a subjective science but painting the Soviets with the same brush as the Nazis is a step too far.

Is it?

Both were motivated arguably by the same or similar ideology (Nationalist Socialism and Bolshevism both come from the same dialectic philosophy, despite the attempts of academia to try to justify their differentiation), and influenced by the same groups of people. Both of them used militarism to accomplish their goals, both of them (from the perspective of someone familiar with philosophical traditions of Judeo-Christian-Islamic liberalism) go against the idea of Liberalism (i.e. individual liberty and equal protection under law).

The Nazis killed people because they needed scapegoats (and, well, socialism objectively does work "better" when you have a homogenous society and no one with any mental or physical disabilities-- this is one of the big problems I have with it-- it's an inherent slippery slope when you put the good of the collective majority over the freedom of the individual) and to militarize in a Keynesian scheme to energize their economy. The Soviets killed people because they refused to do exactly as they were told (up to including dying in a battlefield needlessly in a fight against a technologically superior enemy), and needed to militarize in a... Keynesian scheme to energize their economy.

The Soviets didn't exactly leave after they were done. I kind of understand why the Ukrainians feel/felt the way they do/did towards the Soviets. The situation with the Russian Federation and the Crimea is way more complicated than any news media outlet is willing to shine a light on. And, not to disparage the creator or detract from the thread, it does have a lot to do with a very old U.S. intelligence operation that has continued since shortly after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Originally intended to foment instability in former Warsaw Pact and SSR nations, certain organizations were supported in the Ukraine because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and the Allies had eliminated the Nazi and Japanese Imperialist threat only to be left with an emergent threat-- the Soviets, and in turn the Maoists and the DPRK after the defeat of the ANZAC and Chinese Nationalist forces.

Nazis, Soviets, Maoists, socialism, it's all the same death-cult intellectual garbage.

What's ironic is that now that Russia has not been Soviet/Communist in like 3 decades, if you watch the U.S. news media, it's almost like they are whimsical about the USSR, but we're supposed to feel like we're still in the Cold War with Russia? Russia doesn't care, they want the same thing the U.S. wants: $$$ to $$$ sell $$$ energy $$$.

Also, Roope, Simo Hayha is a legend even among the U.S. military. Who doesn't know about the Winter War?

[Räpylätassu]

As for the design of the cards, it really is improved by leaps and bounds. The tuck box is much better than last time and the NPCC printing pretty much guarantees a killer tuck box.

I am a history buff, but WW2 has never been a great passion for me.

It's a good deck. Deserves to fund. I might get a pair in aftermarket, we'll see.

[montenzi]

Thing is, good deeds don't wash away the bad. The deck shows Invaders of the WW2, not the Axis powers. Soviet Union invaded Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia... Invaiding several countries kinda makes you an invader.

Wrong logic! Technically USSR, USA, UK invaded Germany in 1945 as each invasion is a military action outside their territory.

Historically this deck is 100% trash. IMHO.

Let's create 1000 decks about every single war on this crazy planet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions

What about this? There are just a few examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... ing_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... ted_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... ed_Kingdom

[Jocu]

I really want to bite my tongue but the kind of political ‘discussion’ here is damaging to the intellect of anyone who reads it, so I’ll add a quick comment before discussing the deck.

Socialism does not equal communism, or moreover Stalinism. To conflate the two is damaging and frankly ignorant. Socialism values individual freedom, it just wants to ensure that people like Cristiano Ronaldo earn perhaps $300,000 a week instead of $500,000 a week so that people in Turin, where he works, aren’t starving to death while he buys a few more Ferraris. No ones taking away his Ferraris, just asking him to contribute more to the society which allows him his success.

On the flip side, for those who believe liberal capitalism is freedom, I ask you - is “work or starve to death” really freedom?

Anyway onto the deck. As you can see global perceptions of these men, being in recent memory as they are, are painful. It may be a historically accurate deck but it smacks of tribute and giving them respect. There is little respect to be found for nazis or communists of that era in the world and especially in mainland Europe.

It wouldn’t have bothered me in england, but walking through itslian markets and still seeing mein kampf for sale, pictures of Hitler and Mussolini and iron crosses on display all under the guise of ‘historical memorabilia’ is painful for many people. Mussolini is not hated here, he is ‘misunderstood’. Many very normal, nice people believe he did some good for Italy and that Hitler was the ‘bad guy’. I’m sure here are unfortunately Germans who feel the same way about him.

Fascism is very real and alive in a large chunk of Europe. Real fascism. So these images hurt.

Where do we draw the line? Is it acceptable for historical significance to produce a deck of notorious serial killers? Dictators? It’s a little tasteless, and I question the motives of the creator, or if they truly are ‘history buffs’, their understanding of the subject matter.

You can see how heated this debate got in just a few pages. This hobby is meant to be a pleasure, I don’t think controversy really needs to be a part of it.

[Eric Lee]

For me, this deck hits the same spot as Jody's historical series did. Inform and entertain at the same time. I love Sviatoslav 's art as well. So I'm in for both decks.

I'll be googling the people represented in the courts whom I've not heard before. Also, when my kids get big enough to appreciate playing cards and history, I'll be passing it to them.

Speaking from the Asian perspective where my country was invaded by the Japanese army (where the British was the colonial master at the time) , the Japanese treated the Chinese horribly. Rape of Nanking is just the tip of the iceberg of the atrocities the Japanese committed .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... al_warfare" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a parent, it's my hope that decks like these will spark their interest in history and do proper research on these people and countries they represented. Let the horror of these symbols and flags never be forgotten. With that knowledge, they will be more informed of the past and learn from it to help ensure history doesn't repeat itself.

They will then get a better sense of what their great grandparents suffered during WW2 and , hopefully, wishfully, appreciate what they have and not complain about 1st world problems (or developing nations problems in my case!)

[montenzi]

I'll be googling the people represented in the courts whom I've not heard before. Also, when my kids get big enough to appreciate playing cards and history, I'll be passing it to them.

Pure kids. It's fake history. If you don't understand, please read previous messages by @Magic Tapp / read books or google some Wikipedia articles.

What's wrong with you guys? Short memory? SU lost 27 million lives in this war. And you are talking about art...

p.s. Georgy Zhukov is the King of Spades in this deck. Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

What a joke.

[Sviatoslav Pashchuk]

Thank you all for comments! We go-live at Tuesday, March 5 (Los Angeles 10am PST, NY 1pm EDT, London 6pm GMT+).

[ICantShuffle]

This probably should be another thread (mods?), but I am sorry, I can't let being called ignorant slide-- especially when the argument being presented is uninformed/unsupported.

Socialism does not equal communism, or moreover Stalinism. To conflate the two is damaging and frankly ignorant. Socialism values individual freedom, it just wants to ensure that people like Cristiano Ronaldo earn perhaps $300,000 a week instead of $500,000 a week so that people in Turin, where he works, aren’t starving to death while he buys a few more Ferraris. No ones taking away his Ferraris, just asking him to contribute more to the society which allows him his success.

Wow, a novel argument I have definitely never in my life heard before. Thanks professor, for educating a lowly ignorant prole such as myself. /s

You have to do a lot of mental acrobatics and ignore a lot of cognitive dissonance to split hairs over the difference in definitions. Communism is an emphasis on community, with no property rights, everything is owned "communally," i.e. by the State. Socialism has the veneer of community ripped away and emphasis placed on "personal freedom," with no property rights, everything is owned corporately by the public (this is the definition of socialism), i.e the State. Let's not forget that BOTH of them come from the same dialectic philosophy, so yeah, they are the same, dude. To not recognize that both of them are hard fails is inherently more dangerous than "conflating" them. Both of them require subjugation to the tyranny of the majority (or, the vocal minority) and both of them enable other people to dictate to you literally every aspect of your life, whether it is your identity, what resources you're allowed to share and have access to, and it is far more at the others' emotional whims and far more arbitrary than a market based economy where each individual weighs the value of their own needs/wants.

On the flip side, for those who believe liberal capitalism is freedom, I ask you - is “work or starve to death” really freedom?

First of all, for lecturing someone on conflating terms, I'm not arguing for " liberal capitalism," I'm arguing for a liberal market economy. "Capitalism" is a term formulated by Marx and Engels to describe a specific form of a market economy. Participation in a market economy is voluntary by nature. "Capitalism" implies much more, such as the legitimate power vested by the people in government being misused to leverage the market and participation in favor of the "capitalists."

You literally just posed the question, "is being a biological organism dependent on externalities (i.e. food, water, air, protection from the elements) really freedom?" Not starving requires work on some organism's part no matter what economic system you're evaluating. Shelter doesn't build itself, food doesn't just materialize on a dinner plate-- about the only two necessities readily available are air and water, and often water requires some form of effort to store/divert/transport to the point of use.

Market economies maximize the benefit of efficiencies for those that choose to participate. When paired with a republican form of government (talking about the form of government, not the various political parties throughout the world with the word "republican" in them) generally one is free to choose one's level of participation-- up until very recently it was possible for families to live in unincorporated land, grow their own food, build their own homes and live otherwise completely autonomous lives (in many cases with paying, or receiving the benefit of, any taxes)-- those are true communes, nothing prevents them from occurring in a market economic system or a federalized republic. It's become more rare now, because of the expansion of state power and increasingly interventionist legislation, which is what I see driving the wealth gap.

What I am getting at is that life always requires work-- hard work, generally speaking. I'd rather maximize my potential reward and for those around me, than create arbitrary caps or redistributions based on equally arbitrary assumptions about qualia. So, yeah, since I have to work to survive anyway-- even if we went back to wearing skins and using stone tools-- I'd rather keep my agency and autonomy, if that's all right with you.

No ones taking away his Ferraris, just asking him to contribute more to the society which allows him his success.

It's not really asking when you use force/coercion to compel something. Also society doesn't "allow" his success, if he is successful it's because enough of society has decided that his product or service is worth the price he's selling it for, what he does with his money is his business. If they don't like him buying Ferraris, or think he should spread the wealth around more in his community through philanthropy or local investment (hiring locals, instead of exporting those opportunities) then maybe they shouldn't patronize his business.

Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the world, now, by a pretty big margin. He has more wealth, personally, than the bottom 15% of the country with the world's largest economy. If that's immoral or wrong, then why do people keep patronizing Amazon? I had problems with many of his strategic goals for Amazon, so I stopped shopping with Amazon many years ago. Just an example. Just because someone has more than someone else, does not by necessity mean that the person that has less is not able to obtain more, or that they're starving. In fact, because of liberalization, the percentage of the global population starving is actually shrinking. Funny that.

Fascism is very real and alive in a large chunk of Europe. Real fascism. So these images hurt.

Fascism, or just the fact that because you guys lived for so many years under strongman governments (absolute monarchies), your constitutional republics still end up being totalitarian in one way, shape, or form?

I'm not trying to be insulting. I feel for you guys, though, I really do. I just wonder when you all will realize that it's tyrannical collectivism that keeps your wealth gaps massive and your social mobility non-extant. Monarchies, Fascism, Communism, Socialism, all have at least (for the sake of argument) one thing in common: absolute control of the state over the lives of the individual. But, you do you, boo.

There is little respect to be found for nazis or communists of that era in the world

This we can both agree on.

I guess what ultimately perplexes me about Europeans who talk about this subject is that most of this crap would have been prevented had they taken Woodrow Wilson seriously at the Treaty of Versailles. Had the losing belligerents not been shackled to crippling public debt as part of some revenge scheme by the U.K. and France, then there would have been no debt balloon, no depression, and no impetus to radicalize in response to hyperinflation.

[Sviatoslav Pashchuk]

The project is live on the Kickstarter:

[Sviatoslav Pashchuk]

Dear friends! The project was funded! Your support is amazing and I'm really grateful! We have just reached our first goal and the next one would add embossing and foil on the tuck box. So, let’s do it together!

[Sviatoslav Pashchuk]

Dear all,

On Tuesday, 30 April, we’re launching the mini campaign for the Tank Masters playing cards, Invaders edition. The project will go live: Los Angeles 10am, PST NY 1pm EDT, London 6pm GMT+1. The project has a special pledge for the backers of Tank masters, it includes the discount on the deck price and shipping. If this project succeeds, all of you will be able to choose between 2 decks in the surveys. Thank you for the support!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/21 ... n=3a2bdbdc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Waiting for your comments!

[vasta41]

Printed at the highest quality by the NPCC

I wish you luck as I think this a well designed deck but I will be out because of reason above.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Printed at the highest quality by the NPCC

I wish you luck as I think this a well designed deck but I will be out because of reason above.

What if it was printed by EPCC? Those thin borders would never work with USPCC. I also will not be backing NPCC. The deck is designed well, but I only have Nicolai's decks printed by them.

[vasta41]

What if it was printed by EPCC?

In. Same with Cartamundi.

[Räpylätassu]

Printed at the highest quality by the NPCC

I wish you luck as I think this a well designed deck but I will be out because of reason above.

I honestly don't get why you won't back NPCC... You don't open your decks! So why does the card quality matter then if you are never going to use them? Especially as NPCC has made some of the best tuck boxes in recent years. I could kinda get it for someone that opens their decks (while still thinking it to be a stupid reason of not getting good looking decks) but to a collector that keeps everything mint, I will not in any way get it and never will. Oh and I hope that this does not come out as attacking or disrespecting, as I have gone on about this in several threads recently, because it certainly is not my intention, you are truly among the best members here, but I utterly and thoroughly don't understand this mindset.

And disclaimer: I'm not a backer either but it's not because of the printer. The artwork is okay but nowhere near as nice as El Recuerdo. But the main reason is that I am a history buff but what I have come to realize about myself that I enjoy history because of the good stories you can find in it. The same with books, I read them because I enjoy the good stories in them above all else. World War 2 is not a good story to me, it's just f*cking sad and depressing. It was always my least favorite subject on high school history classes. I do wish this project the best and hope that it will fund but I don't see myself ever buying this.

[Adonael]

It's funny when people talk about capitalism, as if it hasn't caused the usa to stagnate and regress into a third world country, and isn't detrimental to the population or society. But 'woo-hoo we have mass shootings practically every day, unprecedented inequality, 40% of the population is literally retarded and the two party system can't get anything done because we give power to the lowest dumbest common denominator, and we still let religion, which is inherently evil as proven by history, the actions of the majority of it's subjects and the amount of human suffering it has and does cause, influence the government/state. That's called freedom and you better like it!' right?

I hate political discussions, fact is, we're nowhere near figuring out a system which actually works, and the countries which are the closest certainly don't have america in their name, plus americans are nowhere near 'free' anyway. Any discussion other than solving issues in existing systems, trying to find what would work and creating new ones for the future is useless.

As for the deck, the style isn't appealing to me, and I can't support this creator anyway based on the incredibly ignorant comments made in the past. But I will always defend NPCC simply because of Nicolai's decks, their tucks are great and I don't do cardistry but for normal use the cards are a-ok.

[guru]

Printed at the highest quality by the NPCC

I wish you luck as I think this a well designed deck but I will be out because of reason above.

I honestly don't get why you won't back NPCC... You don't open your decks! So why does the card quality matter then if you are never going to use them? Especially as NPCC has made some of the best tuck boxes in recent years.

Räpylätassu - Humans are predictably irrational. Dan Ariely wrote a whole book on irrationality.

Also, it is inherently difficult to understand someone's motivaton in these onlne forums (and on Social Media), you won't understand the hidden motive or intent & the biases a person is carrying with him or her. So, it is futile giving any logical explanation.

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

It's funny when people talk about capitalism, as if it hasn't caused the usa to stagnate and regress into a third world country, and isn't detrimental to the population or society. But 'woo-hoo we have mass shootings practically every day, unprecedented inequality, 40% of the population is literally retarded and the two party system can't get anything done because we give power to the lowest dumbest common denominator, and we still let religion, which is inherently evil as proven by history, the actions of the majority of it's subjects and the amount of human suffering it has and does cause, influence the government/state. That's called freedom and you better like it!' right?

I hate political discussions, fact is, we're nowhere near figuring out a system which actually works, and the countries which are the closest certainly don't have america in their name, plus americans are nowhere near 'free' anyway. Any discussion other than solving issues in existing systems, trying to find what would work and creating new ones for the future is useless.

As for the deck, the style isn't appealing to me, and I can't support this creator anyway based on the incredibly ignorant comments made in the past. But I will always defend NPCC simply because of Nicolai's decks, their tucks are great and I don't do cardistry but for normal use the cards are a-ok.

Lmfao wut?

[insert Billy Madison quote/]

[vasta41]

I honestly don't get why you won't back NPCC...

The same reason I don't buy every gift shop deck I see: QUALITY.
I own a few NPCC decks and for me, that's enough. If a design or theme is so perfectly "for me" then I'll very much consider it. But I don't understand why artists don't want to strive for the best. I briefly brought this up in RJ's new deck thread but if a designer creates a deck and tries to fund it with a good printer and a high goal but it doesn't fund, they're faced with a choice: try to fund it with a lower goal on a lesser printer or don't ever create it at all. Like I said, if a deck is *that good* then I'd rather see it printed on a lesser printer than not at all.

If that's the reason someone chose NPCC then fine. I still may not back it but I understand the reasoning. I can't see why anyone would choose them out of the gate. I will probably never design a deck of playing cards but if I did I would aim for one of the great printers as a stretch goal so to speak and land lower if funding didn't get there. Unless there are technical reasons, for example all of Lotrek's experimental decks, cold foiling, the desire for MetalLuxe, etc. that merit or prohibit you from using a certain printer then why use NPCC? I guess that confuses me as much as my not opening my decks confuses you

[STLBluesNut]

I see the printer issue as a "to each their own" kind of thing. Sort of like adoneal's post above, wtf? I've come to realize that 99% of the time, you aren't going to change someone's opinion or mind, even if you can prove it without a doubt, and I don't feel like I need to.

I'll buy what I like and open them, or not, and everyone else can do as they wish too, doesn't affect me at all. Well, except price gouging resellers lol.

Sent from my Galaxy 8 using Tapatalk

[hsbc]

World War 2 is not a good story to me, it's just f*cking sad and depressing. It was always my least favorite subject on high school history classes.

Some of the worst of humanity for sure - I don't get it either, and I feel the same way about (American) Civil War decks. Especially when there's a Union and Confederate version... I don't want a deck filled with imagery of literal traitors

[Romeril]

It's funny when people talk about capitalism, as if it hasn't caused the usa to stagnate and regress into a third world country, and isn't detrimental to the population or society. But 'woo-hoo we have mass shootings practically every day, unprecedented inequality, 40% of the population is literally retarded and the two party system can't get anything done because we give power to the lowest dumbest common denominator, and we still let religion, which is inherently evil as proven by history, the actions of the majority of it's subjects and the amount of human suffering it has and does cause, influence the government/state. That's called freedom and you better like it!' right?

I hate political discussions, fact is, we're nowhere near figuring out a system which actually works, and the countries which are the closest certainly don't have america in their name, plus americans are nowhere near 'free' anyway. Any discussion other than solving issues in existing systems, trying to find what would work and creating new ones for the future is useless.

As for the deck, the style isn't appealing to me, and I can't support this creator anyway based on the incredibly ignorant comments made in the past. But I will always defend NPCC simply because of Nicolai's decks, their tucks are great and I don't do cardistry but for normal use the cards are a-ok.

I read this earlier and was just going to ignore it, however I have decided to ever so briefly reply to it. You might notice that my location shows USA, but I was not born here. I am an immigrant, and am now a naturalized American Citizen and am proud to call myself American. Are things perfect here? No. But I know no better place. There are many places in the world that I love and many places that are great places to live. Though if I were given the opportunity to make the decision over to come to the USA or go elsewhere or stay put, I would not choose differently.
About what you said about religion: religion is not the problem, people are the problem, people are imperfect, including those in church positions. If everyone could manage to perfectly obey the two great commandments, there would be no crime. I would be happy to discuss any of this more in depth via PM feel free to reach out if you want.

[Sviatoslav Pashchuk]

Dear all! Thank you for the support - we have reached the second project’s goal and now 2 decks are available for order: Invaders and Liberators! Both decks will have embossing and foil. Those of you have ordered 1 deck now can add the 2nd for the complete collection. Also don’t forget that posters, uncut sheets and T-shirts can be added on to your pledges.