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http://shop.conjuringarts.org/store/pc/Zen-c169.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice minimal deck. What can you say?

sprouts1115 wrote:Nice minimal deck. What can you say?

"Duh! Wynning!"

Like all the other ZEN Decks a pass for me. Would rather buy a Oriental deck.
Does anyone buys the prototype sales gimmick? i mean c´mon who prints so many prototypes.

Yeah I read that wrong as I thought they only had printed 13 prototypes and immediately bought the brick but the 13 is the number of decks you get not the number of decks printed. Oh well....Yeah i agree 144 prototypes is high

Anyway i already bought the brick and will be selling my extra Pure Zens at $6 a deck so if anyone want some, email me

thanks

and here I like to moan that a dozen prototypes is stretching it pretty thin.

Actually are there 144 prototypes or 288? They say the first 144 customers to buy a brick of zen pure. But there is another special for the 1st 144 customers to buy a brick of classic twins. I'm not sure if the 144 is split between the two, but it does not specify.

cosmicsecret wrote:Does anyone buys the prototype sales gimmick? i mean c´mon who prints so many prototypes.

In all fairness, after going through the trouble of designing a deck, laying it out for press, making plates, inking up the printer and hitting go...you might as well print more than just a couple decks. EPCC has been doing a lot of research and making a lot of decks with different finishes & papers to test out what the printer is capable of and what options seem to work best.

I've been having in-depth, detail oriented discussions with EPCC for a long time now about their product and I know how hard they are working. They are very much so a prototype deck, and not a sales gimmick. It's better to offer them to those who want them as opposed to pay to store them or just simply throwing them away.

It's worth the money and time to print a few hundred decks...with that you can check print quality and consistency. Check to see if deck #1 handles or performs differently from deck #300. I think it's all good, they are running a very fair and honest business and it's all to give us the best decks they can possibly make.

I don't think anyone's faulting the EPCC here, they just print out what they're told. The fault (imo) lies with CARC for printing out so many "prototypes". I agree you might as well print out more than a couple of prototypes after all that effort. I think most of us know what the purpose of a prototype deck is, and most of us know there's really no need to print out 100's of prototype decks. Like cosmicsecret already said, CARCS' "prototypes" were produced in a large quantity clearly as a sales gimmick designed to incentivize people to buy bricks. It is what it is.

Serious question- can someone please tell me how this ($14.95 http://shop.conjuringarts.org/store/pc/ ... NS4bp3F-9E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;):

This special edition of our streamlined Zen Pure playing cards is set apart by a gold foil print of our Zen logo on the back of the card and gold foil on the tuck, The Zen Pure Gold was printed in a very small run of only a thousand decks.

The gold foil logo on the back beautifully catches the light and is strikingly set against the black background and crisp, white edges.

Each deck come in a tuck case embellished with gold foil accents to distinguish these from the Black Zen Pure edition.

...is different from Gold V?

Well it has a lot less foil on it and Gold V is handmade is it not?

Anyway perhaps what Conjuring Arts needs to do is stop referring to them as prototypes and start calling them what they really are, limited editions.

I'm not trying to take away anything Lortek did- in fact that can't be done. He was the FIRST to do it EVER! And there's something to be said about that. What I'm curious about is if the EPCC can do this now, what does that mean?

To me, it seems like CARC is experimenting with EPCC on foil backed playing cards. I never picked up the Exquisite Bold, but I've heard handling is slightly affected in a negative way due to the foil. I do have the Royal Zen deck, and I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised. EPCC decks don't fan as evenly as USPCC decks to start with, but having said that, it seems that the foiling on the back of the Royal Zens minimally impacts the fanning. I expect the Zen Pure Gold to be the same.

My feeling is that CARC/EPCC is gradually trying to expand the amount of foil it can get on the backs of the cards without it impacting the handling and feel of the deck in a significant way. Maybe in the future they can get the formulation to the point where they can get a back design that's significantly foiled like Lotrek's Venexiana Gold while still maintaining a positive degree of handling. The Venexiana Gold is strictly a collector's deck. Exquisitely made, but without any regard for handling and exorbitantly priced. If CARC can eventually get a fully foiled back that's more commercially priced and can still handle decently, then hats off to them.

JacksonRobinson wrote: I totally agree with you that full foil and spot foil are very different. The craftsmanship of the Vs is incredible, but that still doesn't alter the fact that both full and spot foil with accurate registration even with multiple colors of foil is something that has been present in playing cards for years.

I believe that the technique you're referring to is not the hot stamped foil but the printed foil. It has similar visual effects but it's a quite different thing. I bet that all the foiled decks you mention, share the same feature: "Foil" on the whole surface of the card. This is because they just apply a silver coating on the stock and then they print on it. Max's metal deck tuck case is printed on a similar paper and it looks like foil.
Nothing to do with hot stamped foil.

Just so you know Lotrek, I die a little inside everytime you say rejected go into the bin. I don't care if I have to walk to Greece, I'll rescue that metaphorical bin.

Lotrek wrote:

JacksonRobinson wrote: I totally agree with you that full foil and spot foil are very different. The craftsmanship of the Vs is incredible, but that still doesn't alter the fact that both full and spot foil with accurate registration even with multiple colors of foil is something that has been present in playing cards for years.

I believe that the technique you're referring to is not the hot stamped foil but the printed foil. It has similar visual effects but it's a quite different thing. I bet that all the foiled decks you mention, share the same feature: "Foil" on the whole surface of the card. This is because they just apply a silver coating on the stock and then they print on it. Max's metal deck tuck case is printed on a similar paper and it looks like foil.
Nothing to do with hot stamped foil.

Nope, I am clear on the difference between "printed" cold pressed foil and that of hot pressed foil. Hot pressed foil with multi colors on playing cards has been around for years. I have a Federal 52 deck that has full bleed hot pressed foil on the back. Even if there is only 5 of them and I have them all doesn't mean that they or the tech don't exist.

JacksonRobinson wrote:

Lotrek wrote:

JacksonRobinson wrote: I totally agree with you that full foil and spot foil are very different. The craftsmanship of the Vs is incredible, but that still doesn't alter the fact that both full and spot foil with accurate registration even with multiple colors of foil is something that has been present in playing cards for years.

I believe that the technique you're referring to is not the hot stamped foil but the printed foil. It has similar visual effects but it's a quite different thing. I bet that all the foiled decks you mention, share the same feature: "Foil" on the whole surface of the card. This is because they just apply a silver coating on the stock and then they print on it. Max's metal deck tuck case is printed on a similar paper and it looks like foil.
Nothing to do with hot stamped foil.

Nope, I am clear on the difference between "printed" cold pressed foil and that of hot pressed foil. Hot pressed foil with multi colors on playing cards has been around for years. I have a Federal 52 deck that has full bleed hot pressed foil on the back. Even if there is only 5 of them and I have them all doesn't mean that they or the tech don't exist.

Can you post hi res close up pics of these cards? It would be interesting to see them.

Its an iphone pic but here is a great example of a deck from the 80s that has full back hot pressed foil. It's not multi color but it is full back. The detail is spot on even down to the small line work. Also notice that this was printed by USPCC as well.





Look at that tasty gidling

And sorry you don't get to see those Feds, those are "my precious"

JacksonRobinson wrote:And sorry you don't get to see those Feds, those are "my precious"

*Adds "Get to see the Fed 52 foil edition" to bucket list*

JacksonRobinson wrote: I have a Federal 52 deck that has full bleed hot pressed foil on the back. Even if there is only 5 of them and I have them all doesn't mean that they or the tech don't exist.

Love how casually you drop bombs there old boy.

I've been wondering about that myself for a while. You know how you can send baby booties to have them bronzed or whatever? I was wondering if such a service exists where you can send some decks to get gilded or even foiled. Bet it's not easy or even cheap.

JacksonRobinson wrote:Its an iphone pic but here is a great example of a deck from the 80s that has full back hot pressed foil. It's not multi color but it is full back. The detail is spot on even down to the small line work. Also notice that this was printed by USPCC as well.





Look at that tasty gidling

Gilding is indeed great and it shows how foil should look like. The backs seem to me like plain metallic ink. Of course I cannot 100% judge from the pics, so I cannot be positive. I wonder though why nobody objected when I announced the V. Gold as a "first" in the playing card industry. I believe we have many experienced collectors here who could had commented on this. Unless hot stamped foil backs is such a common thing that none of the collectors bothers to pay the slightest attention.

jacksonRobinson wrote:I totally agree with you that full foil and spot foil are very different. The craftsmanship of the Vs is incredible, but that still doesn't alter the fact that both full and spot foil with accurate registration even with multiple colors of foil is something that has been present in playing cards for years.

OK, off to Thunder Dome, guys...

Jackson,you're confusing metallic ink with foil.

The Bicycle gold & silver metallic riderbacks were done a couple of years ago. Metallic inks is not hot stamped foil, it is applied like any other ink.

http://everythingcards.blogspot.com/201 ... s.html?m=1

Bill Kalush stated that card backs can't be foiled when the first Exquisite red & blue came out. Small spots have since been done but Lotrek is indeed the only person to fully foil card backs - ever.

Metallic inks have not been around anywhere near 100 years, also.

They are gilt, but that process has nothing to do with foiled backs, it is applied post production to the sides and hasn't been real gold or silver since the mid 20's, but Peter Dunham (Uusi) has done 23.75k gold foil gilding. It's an old world craftsmanship job, takes hours per deck.

Gotta know history - gilding was invented by the Byzantine culture.

JacksonRobinson wrote:

vasta41 wrote:I'm not trying to take away anything Lortek did- in fact that can't be done. He was the FIRST to do it EVER! And there's something to be said about that. What I'm curious about is if the EPCC can do this now, what does that mean?

Not knocking Lotrek deck at all as I think the courts are awesome, but what are you referring to when you say "He was the FIRST to do it EVER!" If you are talking about full foil on the back or front of a card, then that is grossly inaccurate. I have multiple decks on my shelf as we speak that have full bleed foil, off the side of the card front and back. They were also done in the last 5 years not 100 years ago. Which they were doing foil then to. The big upside with what CARC is doing is that this approach creates foiled decks on a mass produced scale that the foil is under the finish and the cards handle like normal playing cards.

I guess I was mistakenly under the impression that the process or result of the Gold V's were somehow an industry first. I'm glad EPCC is pushing the envelope on this. The Gold V and soon-to-be ICON Imperial are beautiful pieces of artwork and I personally think they're worth the price. But it would be nice to know in the future that decks 'similar' to them can be cheaper with more and more practice.

I also wonder is the USPCC will adopt this experimentation any time soon. Probably not

Well this just got more interesting.

Eoghann wrote:Well this just got more interesting.

Whoa whoa whoa- memes and gifs are Tom's business. Come on now..

By the way, USPCC stated that "it can't be done" Less than a year ago, as well (Hot stamped foil on card backs)...

Mike Ratledge wrote:

jacksonRobinson wrote:I totally agree with you that full foil and spot foil are very different. The craftsmanship of the Vs is incredible, but that still doesn't alter the fact that both full and spot foil with accurate registration even with multiple colors of foil is something that has been present in playing cards for years.

OK, off to Thunder Dome, guys...

Jackson,you're confusing metallic ink with foil.

The Bicycle gold & silver metallic riderbacks were done a couple of years ago. Metallic inks is not hot stamped foil, it is applied like any other ink.

http://everythingcards.blogspot.com/201 ... s.html?m=1

Bill Kalush stated that card backs can't be foiled when the first Exquisite red & blue came out. Small spots have since been done but Lotrek is indeed the only person to fully foil card backs - ever.

Metallic inks have not been around anywhere near 100 years, also.

They are gilt, but that process has nothing to do with foiled backs, it is applied post production to the sides and hasn't been real gold or silver since the mid 20's,thpufh Peter Dunham (Uusi) has done 23.75k gold foil gilding. It's an old world craftsmanship job, takes hours per deck.

In no way am I confusing metallic gold inks with foil. And the deck that you have supplied the link for is not the deck that posted a picture of.

In no way am I questioning the collective experience of this forum as collectors. I only draw on my own experiences and knowledge. I didn't mention anything about the "first" claim on the Icons thread simply in good taste and being respectful of your incredible project. I am also honestly trying to carve a place out for myself here again and don't think that would have helped that much. The Icons are awesome and the foiling is going to be incredible because I've seen the Golds in person. I just think words like "first in the industry" should be said with extreme caution when you are talking about an industry that is hundreds of years old, and foiling, gilding, in all its shapes and forms, hot press, gilding, or cold press has been around longer than the playing card industry itself.

As for metallic inks the easily date back 100 years.

These are a beautiful example of metallic inks being used 134 years ago. You may find this Congress Deck and many others like it in The Hachmans as US6 No 606 c1881. Enough of this derailing topic from me. No reason for me to return to the ill named Thunderdome. Sinji7 and I have mended our wounds and moved on.

oops. And these aren't even "My precious"

Please don't let that conversation die! I'm finding it very interesting. Created a new thread, perhaps you guys can discuss it there? Peaceful as always, I'm finding this very informative.

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