Sigils of Fenrir by JinJade

[Fenrir]

Another blown up project for a first time creator.. oh boy..

JinJade has officially stated that they will declare all rewards as gifts when shipped to ease the VAT burden for the supporters of their first project. Are you legally allowed to do so, when raising HK$ 1,520,323 in online trade, even as a private individual?

This could potentially be a game changer for the platform - or destructive creator behavior. I wonder if Charmie Dreams The Cat also does this?

Any backers of Charmie Dreams the Cat in this forum, who's interested in having this conversation?

I’ve backed all the Charmie campaigns. Happy to discuss.

[wonderfulfacts]

Appeciated.
Do you know the answers to the two questions - and what is your take on it?

[Fenrir]

I can give you my perspective.

Regarding whether or not it’s legal. My understanding is that the expectation legally is that you correctly and properly document what is being shipped. So is it legal to say it’s a gift? No. They would have to be caught by customs and the burden of proof would be to prove it’s not a gift.

Is Charmie doing it? Can’t recall from my last package but I don’t think so. I don’t have the box so I’ll have to wait for my next shipment.

Was that what you were looking for?

[wonderfulfacts]

I am interested in your opinionated perspective as much as legal facts on this subject.

As a backer of Charmie's, are you enjoying the benefits of having to pay less import duties for 'gifts' as opposed to purchases?
It is certainly presented this way by JinJade's own wording and if this is the case, then it matters legally how the contents of your deliveries are categorized and not just how the content is properly described, no?

In regards to Charmie Dreams The Cat:

On Update #6 on Ravens of Odin, Charmie writes:
"Again, as mentioned in the campaign, we will mark the parcel as "GIFT" and declare the value between USD5 - USD25. Hopefully this may help to reduce or even cut the import tax."

So, unsurprisingly, Charmie uses the exact same business practice on their (main) account.

Since you are a backer of all of Charmie's, I thought you might have an opinion and knowledge of their ways of doing things.
How do you feel about supporting a creator who does not work within the legal boundaries of international trade?

[JazzBaloo]

I am interested in your opinionated perspective as much as legal facts on this subject.

As a backer of Charmie's, are you enjoying the benefits of having to pay less import duties for 'gifts' as opposed to purchases?
It is certainly presented this way by JinJade's own wording and if this is the case, then it matters legally how the contents of your deliveries are categorized and not just how the content is properly described, no?

In regards to Charmie Dreams The Cat:

On Update #6 on Ravens of Odin, Charmie writes:
"Again, as mentioned in the campaign, we will mark the parcel as "GIFT" and declare the value between USD5 - USD25. Hopefully this may help to reduce or even cut the import tax."

So, unsurprisingly, Charmie uses the exact same business practice on their (main) account.

Since you are a backer of all of Charmie's, I thought you might have an opinion and knowledge of their ways of doing things.
How do you feel about supporting a creator who does not work within the legal boundaries of international trade?

Yes charmie is doing it

[wonderfulfacts]

Criminalizing themselves for cheap popularity points puts other creators at an unfair disadvantage and their backers at risk of facing trouble with their purchases, now more than ever with the latest and upcoming trade regulations.

Backers should have been informed from the start that they were not going to comply with global business trade laws.

[Fenrir]

I am interested in your opinionated perspective as much as legal facts on this subject.

As a backer of Charmie's, are you enjoying the benefits of having to pay less import duties for 'gifts' as opposed to purchases?
It is certainly presented this way by JinJade's own wording and if this is the case, then it matters legally how the contents of your deliveries are categorized and not just how the content is properly described, no?

In regards to Charmie Dreams The Cat:

On Update #6 on Ravens of Odin, Charmie writes:
"Again, as mentioned in the campaign, we will mark the parcel as "GIFT" and declare the value between USD5 - USD25. Hopefully this may help to reduce or even cut the import tax."

So, unsurprisingly, Charmie uses the exact same business practice on their (main) account.

Since you are a backer of all of Charmie's, I thought you might have an opinion and knowledge of their ways of doing things.
How do you feel about supporting a creator who does not work within the legal boundaries of international trade?

I don't back his projects for less import tax. I back a project because I like the art and if I am subject to duties or taxes when anything arrives I pay it. I understand that are the rules for my country and I factor that in to all of my purchases.

I'm not bothered by it. At the end of the day it is different then someone lowering the value for a shipment to a friend or a business lying or avoiding tax. These things happen all the time every day. I would say I am more mad about millionaire/billionaires being able to avoid tax by taking loans out against their stocks.

[Fenrir]

Criminalizing themselves for cheap popularity points puts other creators at an unfair disadvantage and their backers at risk of facing trouble with their purchases, now more than ever with the latest and upcoming trade regulations.

Backers should have been informed from the start that they were not going to comply with global business trade laws.

There's no penalty for backers. The recipient is not responsible for improper declaration of value either criminally or financially. If customs had deemed the value of the goods to be undervalued, they simply would have put a new dollar value on the item and sent the receiver a notice of payment in order to receive the package. You would then have the option to pay the bill and receive the package, refuse the package or dispute the charges.

This is no different the how Temu operates or many other countries. Things are undervalued all the time. That is why customs evaluates and makes decisions based on what they receive.

So I am curious by your question. Do you think them doing this is harming the playing cards community?

[kevork]

I can't imagine it's legal as it's a form of evading taxes, so for any creator, it's a "do at your own risk."

[Honeybee]

It would seem risky. On a similar note, I have always wondered why ebay international collect GST for the Australian government but no other seller that I have ever dealt with (yes, I am thankful they are the one and only)

[laitostarr777]

I think its all depends on each countries’s regulations, I supposed
For my case in Indonesia, whatever is stated on the package will be the base price for taxation. If sender sets up as normal value, the more I need to pay tax. Usually, sender would be kind enough to lower the value enough to lessen the burden.

[wonderfulfacts]

Criminalizing themselves for cheap popularity points puts other creators at an unfair disadvantage and their backers at risk of facing trouble with their purchases, now more than ever with the latest and upcoming trade regulations.

Backers should have been informed from the start that they were not going to comply with global business trade laws.

There's no penalty for backers.

So I am curious by your question. Do you think them doing this is harming the playing cards community?

While there is no legal penalty for backers/buyes, they are still at risk of suffering some sort of consequence if shit hits the fan.
Most governments are fully aware that this tax evation system is circling globally and that is why they are constantly updating their efforts and regulations to counter for fraud.
Laws are made when actions are harmful and rules are in place to be followed by all.

Charmie Dreams The VAT is obviously harming the playing card community when they don't act within the legal and moral framework as everyone else.

[KGthePrince]

Criminalizing themselves for cheap popularity points puts other creators at an unfair disadvantage and their backers at risk of facing trouble with their purchases, now more than ever with the latest and upcoming trade regulations.

Backers should have been informed from the start that they were not going to comply with global business trade laws.

There's no penalty for backers.

So I am curious by your question. Do you think them doing this is harming the playing cards community?

While there is no legal penalty for backers/buyes, they are still at risk of suffering some sort of consequence if shit hits the fan.
Most governments are fully aware that this tax evation system is circling globally and that is why they are constantly updating their efforts and regulations to counter for fraud.
Laws are made when actions are harmful and rules are in place to be followed by all.

Charmie Dreams The VAT is obviously harming the playing card community when they don't act within the legal and moral framework as everyone else.

Do you think Charmie is selling enough decks in any given county for any foreign government to waste their resources on pursuing legal action?

[Fenrir]

What kind of consequences are you referring to and when would things hit the fan?

I am not telling you what is being done is morally/ethically or legally right.

What I can't figure out is you appear to have it out for both of those creators. While you are right that there is harm in terms of VAT not being collected appropriately, what is the true risk? These two creators who don't even make up 1% of the total playing card imports to the EU will suddenly cause legislators to charge more for playing cards? That playing cards would be banned from being imported?

[wonderfulfacts]

Consequences in the form of having issues receiving your purchase as ordered.

You don't know when a strike is done to a seller and obviously this will vary for each country, with some being more ressourceful than others.
If customs finds that a particular seller seems to not work within the framework of international trade laws and regulations, then your purchase might be confiscated temporarily or even permanently.
Is shit likely to hit the fan here? No.
Does that make it a practice that should be supported or encouraged? No.

You say that you are not bothered by this.
I am curious if you don't think you are supporting tax evation by supporting creators who have openly said that they will abstain from following laws of taxation.

There are plenty of indicators that JinJade is just a personal contact to allow for Charmie to have more active Kickstarter projects at a time.
That is why I consider them one and the same.

You are fine to believe that JinJade just happens to be a creator who has the exact same approach, mentality, type of graphical execution, business strategy and interests that Charmie has. I don't see much that presents JinJade as being anything other than a project placeholder for Charmie.
If you happen to know about a creative standalone background for this person, then you are more than welcome to share it.

[Adamthinks]

This is some silly unnecessary drama.

[Fenrir]

Consequences in the form of having issues receiving your purchase as ordered.

You don't know when a strike is done to a seller and obviously this will vary for each country, with some being more ressourceful than others.
If customs finds that a particular seller seems to not work within the framework of international trade laws and regulations, then your purchase might be confiscated temporarily or even permanently.
Is shit likely to hit the fan here? No.
Does that make it a practice that should be supported or encouraged? No.

You say that you are not bothered by this.
I am curious if you don't think you are supporting tax evation by supporting creators who have openly said that they will abstain from following laws of taxation.

There are plenty of indicators that JinJade is just a personal contact to allow for Charmie to have more active Kickstarter projects at a time.
That is why I consider them one and the same.

You are fine to believe that JinJade just happens to be a creator who has the exact same approach, mentality, type of graphical execution, business strategy and interests that Charmie has. I don't see much that presents JinJade as being anything other than a project placeholder for Charmie.
If you happen to know about a creative standalone background for this person, then you are more than welcome to share it.

Listen I hear what you are saying. Adam is right that this is an interesting topic but unnecessary drama.

A country could flag a citizen or resident for shipments that are declared incorrectly but there are a lot of other factors that go into it. Like anything in life, you can make the decision to support the decision by the creator or not by backing the campaigns or deciding to pick it up from someone else after the fact.

I am not bothered by this because literally every company is doing it. Amazon, Temu, places you shop at daily all avoid paying taxes. So if I wanted to take this moral high ground I would need to stop shopping at a lot of stores. As mentioned, I am happy to pay the import and my assumption is that creators will value their packages correctly. If they don't, that's not something I have asked for or a reason for me deciding to back the campaign.

Whether JinJade is another Charmie account doesn't bother me. Tons of creators have different accounts. Alex has Season and P52, Nicolai Aaroe has his own and the other self. Does this stop me from backing their campaigns? I am in for the artwork at the end of the day.

So I hear what you are saying about everyone following the rules but it's an optimistic view of the world. Turn on the news for five minutes or just read online and you will see how unfair things are. I am not saying that is right but this is just a small drop in the scale of the world and likely doesn't need to be addressed any further. People can make decisions to support or not based on their comfort levels.

[wonderfulfacts]

Do you think Charmie is selling enough decks in any given county for any foreign government to waste their resources on pursuing legal action?

No. But I do think that the US government in particular will start allocating more ressources to looking into the waves of 'gifts' coming in from Asia to the US citizens. Trump has sorta hinted at that.

Fenrir, I acknowledge your position and appreciate the chat we had on the subject.

[Fenrir]

Just to add in one more thing, the USA which makes up the vast majority of the playing card community has the best import laws. They are allowed $800 USD each before any taxes or duties are applied. I am insanely jealous of that but I doubt there are many supporting at that level to even come close to the limit.

Appreciate our convo as well! Always glad to have a chat and hear both sides.

[JazzBaloo]

What is the justification for the taxation? Governments can print money or send billions of your tax dollars abroad if they want. I don't worry too much about the crooks not getting paid.

[Evilgamer]

What is the justification for the taxation? Governments can print money or send billions of your tax dollars abroad if they want. I don't worry too much about the crooks not getting paid.

To make money for get government even if they have done little to nothing to facilitate having a reason to collect it. Im very happy that here in the US that Lotrek marking a deck as being worth $5 or whatever hes doing...means nothing.

It's the same thing that happened here to force Amazon and other internet merchants to charge US state sales tax well before the company had any physical presence in the state the customer was in. Heck to today my state still has a block on our state tax return to ask if there was anything I bought on the internet that I still owe them sales tax on (yes Im sure that one gets a loooooot of people being 100% honest).

[JazzBaloo]

What is the justification for the taxation? Governments can print money or send billions of your tax dollars abroad if they want. I don't worry too much about the crooks not getting paid.

To make money for get government even if they have done little to nothing to facilitate having a reason to collect it. Im very happy that here in the US that Lotrek marking a deck as being worth $5 or whatever hes doing...means nothing.

It's the same thing that happened here to force Amazon and other internet merchants to charge US state sales tax well before the company had any physical presence in the state the customer was in. Heck to today my state still has a block on our state tax return to ask if there was anything I bought on the internet that I still owe them sales tax on (yes Im sure that one gets a loooooot of people being 100% honest).

Taxation without representation is criminal.